Bonehead move with batteries has me questioning capacity or battery monitor…

[John From MN]

We have a 2023 21 NE with the 4 Li-Ion battery package and 2 solar panels on the roof and all the Victron products they were offering last year for this model.

I spent yesterday winterizing it.
As I live in Minnesota where the winter temps can be brutal, I remove the batteries for indoor storage in our home. We store the trailer in an unheated garage we rent about 40 miles from our home.

Since these batteries are recommended to be long-term stored at between 40% and 60% capacity, I turned on the inverter and plugged in a 1000 watt space heater and let it run for about 4 hours until the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor said I was at 51% capacity, so I shut down the heater and inverter, pulled the batteries out and stored the batteries in our basement.

Today I hauled the trailer to our storage facility where I soon re-learned that the electric jack will not work without the batteries installed! I mistakenly thought it would work off the tow vehicle power. I then drove home and re-installed the batteries. To my surprise, the Victron battery monitor now says they are at 100% capacity!

Any idea how they went from 51% to 100% just sitting on our basement floor for 24 hours?



Thanks!

 

[SRS]

We have a 2023 21 NE with the 4 Li-Ion battery package and 2 solar panels on the roof and all the Victron products they were offering last year for this model.

I spent yesterday winterizing it.
As I live in Minnesota where the winter temps can be brutal, I remove the batteries for indoor storage in our home. We store the trailer in an unheated garage we rent about 40 miles from our home.

Since these batteries are recommended to be long-term stored at between 40% and 60% capacity, I turned on the inverter and plugged in a 1000 watt space heater and let it run for about 4 hours until the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor said I was at 51% capacity, so I shut down the heater and inverter, pulled the batteries out and stored the batteries in our basement.

Today I hauled the trailer to our storage facility where I soon re-learned that the electric jack will not work without the batteries installed! I mistakenly thought it would work off the tow vehicle power. I then drove home and re-installed the batteries. To my surprise, the Victron battery monitor now says they are at 100% capacity!

Any idea how they went from 51% to 100% just sitting on your basement floor for 24 hours?



Thanks!

Not an expert but I'll take a shot at your question. I Believe when you reinstall the batteries, the 712 resets it's % of charge to whatever the charge is on the batteries. In the spring, I charge my lithiums with a victron IP65 and then install them in the trailer. You can also reset the % of charge in the Victron app as the batteries receive more charge from the solar system or if you,re plugged in. And really it's the voltage of the batteries that is important I think. Mine are 100% at 13.5 volts or above. Currently, with no solar or charging from the converter my batteries are 97% at 13.29 volts. I have to get them down to around 13.1 volts or lower before I remove them. Just guessing on that at the moment. HubLion recommend storage at between 60-80%.
Hope that helps

 

[John From MN]

Not an expert but I'll take a shot at your question. I Believe when you reinstall the batteries, the 712 resets it's % of charge to whatever the charge is on the batteries. In the spring, I charge my lithiums with a victron IP65 and then install them in the trailer. You can also reset the % of charge in the Victron app as the batteries receive more charge from the solar system or if you,re plugged in. And really it's the voltage of the batteries that is important I think. Mine are 100% at 13.5 volts or above. Currently, with no solar or charging from the converter my batteries are 97% at 13.29 volts. I have to get them down to around 13.1 volts or lower before I remove them. Just guessing on that at the moment. HubLion recommend storage at between 60-80%.
Hope that helps

It does! Thank you!

 

[Ron in BC]

I soon re-learned that the electric jack will not work without the batteries installed!

Thanks!

Doesn't your electric jack have the ability to be cranked manually?

Ron

 

[GinoandLinda]

Not an expert but I'll take a shot at your question. I Believe when you reinstall the batteries, the 712 resets its % of charge to whatever the charge is on the batteries.

Yep. That’s it. The battery monitor relies on you to make sure the batteries are at100% when hooked up and uses that as its baseline. At least that’s how the Renogy battery monitor worked. I assume Victron is the same.

 

[hugh]

Out of curiosity, where did you learn that your batteries are supposed to be stored between 40% and 60%?

That's true for LiCoO2 batteries, like the ones in a phone or laptop, but not LiFePO4 batteries like the ones in your trailer. Those are supposed to be stored as close as you can get to 100% charge.

See BattleBorn winterization recommendations:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq-how-to-winterize-your-batteries/

 

[Centex]

Out of curiosity, where did you learn that your batteries are supposed to be stored between 40% and 60%?

FWIW the following is clipped verbatim from the manufacturer's written "Battery care and maintenance" instructions for my BestGo 400Ah LiFePO4 battery pack (bold added):

"For long-term storage please keep the batteries at 40%~60% SOC, discharge and recharge batteries 1~2 times after about 3~6 months in storage, as to maintain cycle health. Do not fully charge the batteries for the long-term storage, as that can be harmful to cycle life and performance."​

More FYI, the same source states:

"Battery Cycle Life ≥ 3000 times @ 80% DOD, ± C/3, 23°C; After cycles can deliver ≥ 75% rated capacity"​

Make of that what you will, other battery instructions may differ, I'm following the instructions specific to my battery.

 

[hugh]

FWIW the following is clipped verbatim from the manufacturer's written "Battery care and maintenance" instructions for my BestGo 400Ah LiFePO4 battery pack (bold added):

"For long-term storage please keep the batteries at 40%~60% SOC, discharge and recharge batteries 1~2 times after about 3~6 months in storage, as to maintain cycle health. Do not fully charge the batteries for the long-term storage, as that can be harmful to cycle life and performance."​

More FYI, the same source states:

"Battery Cycle Life ≥ 3000 times @ 80% DOD, ± C/3, 23°C; After cycles can deliver ≥ 75% rated capacity"​

Make of it what you will, I'm following the instructions specific to my battery. YMMV.

Wow, I guess BestGo uses crappy cells. Only 3000 cycles at 80% DoD?


My cells, and the ones in BattleBorn are speced for storage at 100%>

 

[Centex]

Wow, I guess BestGo uses crappy cells. Only 3000 cycles at 80% DoD?

Or, as determined by several online independent testers, BestGo publishes very conservative specifications.

Not that he's the be-all-end-all, but Wiil Prouse was one, testing this battery contemporary to my 2021 purchase (and giving it a very good rating); that old review seems to no longer be on his YouTube channel for linking here.

Noting that 80% DOD typically equates to approximately 10 volts, and most devices nominally rated for 12VDC don't perform well (if at all) below that voltage, I personally don't see any practical value in considering deeper DODs. Battle Born must agree, given that their BMS, like the BestGo BMS, has a protective discharge voltage cut-off at 10 volts (so the "full discharge" referenced in Battle Born's battery cycle claims must be at ~80% DOD, too).

How long do Battle Born Batteries last?.
Through extensive cycle testing, we have determined that, after 3,000 full discharge cycles in extreme conditions, our lithium batteries will have 75%-80% battery life left. For the average user not operating their battery in extreme conditions, they will have 75%-80% battery capacity after 5,000 cycles. If you were to fully charge and discharge your Battle Born Batteries every day, they would last you between 10 and 15 years. With a 10-year warranty, our lithium batteries will keep you powered for years to come.​

Methinks that the Battle Born life-cycle claims (and real-world expectations) are ultimately very similar to those made (and offered) by BestGo.

But thanks for the comment / opinion.

With apology to the OP for the tangent, back to your topic ....

 

[hugh]

Yeah. the point I was trying to make is that there is a lot of mis-information online about the care and feeding "Lithium" batteries, because the term "Lithium" actually doesn't tell you enough about the battery to know the charge / discharge parameters. The type of Lithium batteries in our trailers is very different than the type used in other electronic devices.


The OP seemed to be going to some significant pains to get to a 50% DoD for storage, and I was wondering if that was actually the correct storage level for that manufacturer. That said, I don't know which brand of battery is being installed by Escape these days. I was assuming BattleBorn, but maybe not.


Edit: It's also worth checking on the recommended storage temperature range as well. I'm guessing that Minneapolis is probably one of the few places where you'd need to bring your batteries inside, but most places don't get cold enough for that to be a concern.

 

[Garry George]

Today I hauled the trailer to our storage facility where I soon re-learned that the electric jack will not work without the batteries installed! I mistakenly thought it would work off the tow vehicle power. I then drove home and re-installed the batteries.

Thanks!

I went through this yesterday myself. What I did to restore power to the tongue jack was jumper the TV +12dc around the trailer/vehicle charger. This worked for me:
- Open the Battery Disconnect switch.
- Remove input and output connectors from the DC/DC Charger
- Short the two connectors using a marrette connector.
- Connect the tow vehicle.

Note: Removing the trailer battery also means you do not have break-away trailer brakes. It was for this reason that I opted to do what you did and just reconnect the LiOn battery.

 

[Ron in BC]

I went through this yesterday myself.

Again, don't the tongue jacks that you have allow for cranking manually?

Ron

 

[Luvnlife-ESC]

Escape currently installs Hub Lion batteries as an upgrade from the lead acid.

 

[Garry George]

Again, don't the tongue jacks that you have allow for cranking manually?

Ron

Yes, I could operate the jack manually. The reason I jumpered the DC/DC Converter was because it was an easy work-around. I installed all this stuff myself and installing the jumper was a easy process. In retrospect, I decided to re-connect the battery for transport to have emergency brakes.

 

[John From MN]

Doesn't your electric jack have the ability to be cranked manually?

Ron

Doh! I forgot all about the manual crank option! That would have saved me a trip to the storage garage. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[John From MN]

Out of curiosity, where did you learn that your batteries are supposed to be stored between 40% and 60%?

That's true for LiCoO2 batteries, like the ones in a phone or laptop, but not LiFePO4 batteries like the ones in your trailer. Those are supposed to be stored as close as you can get to 100% charge.

See BattleBorn winterization recommendations:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq-how-to-winterize-your-batteries/

I think I got the 40-60 rule from Storables.Com https://storables.com/articles/how-to-store-lithium-batteries-for-the-winter/

I also saw a couple other comments on line about this.

My batteries are HubLion and in retrospect I should have contacted them for their storage recommendation as SRS did.

 

[John From MN]

Thanks to all for your input on this thread. I'm sure I'll be reading them again next fall when it's time to store the trailer again!

 

[Don Flamenco]

Don't forget that the hand crank for the stabilizers can also be used to raise/lower the tongue jack.

 

[Centex]

... HubLion recommend storage at between 60-80%. ...

Hmmm, looking only at LiFePO4 chemistry battery packs, I note that HubLion, BestGo, and at least some Victron Smart battery packs (among others) use prismatic format cells (not to be confused with "pouch" format cells). Battle Born and some others use cylindrical format cells. Many of the battery websites / spec sheets I scanned don't readily reveal the cell format used.

As with many things, there's pros and cons associated with each cell format.

I have no idea, but wonder if cell format has a bearing on the long-term storage SOC recommendations for some reason?

Wait .... I think I've wandered off-topic, again ...

 

[Luvnlife-ESC]

HubLion manual

Here is the he manual from the website.