Buildsheet Electric Choices

[EZAdventures]

I'm not sure if this post is most appropriate for Shopping Escape or Escape Systems.
I want to ensure I'm making the most practical AND economic choice on the electric for our 21C build.

I have chosen:
One, 200w solar panel. Comes with the 100 | 20 MPPT
1500w inverter. Comes with transfer switch.
Lithium ready Comes with DC to DC charger. Ships with AGM battery.

My plan/hopes for future:
Based on what little info I have, have read, and was told I would like to immediately replace the AGM and install the 100ah lithium battery from my current pop-up camper. Then in the next few years I would like to install a bigger battery or two (300ah x 2?). I'm assuming all the equipment will work just need to respec things like the Victron battery monitor. (I know I'll need to consider the new battery specs in terms of charging/discharging etc)

I plan to eventually install one more panel on the roof to run with the current panel into the MPPT that came with it and then install and second MPPT to handle the Zamp port and the portable solar needs. (I know I'll need to understand voltages/amperages on the additional panel and coordinate that with the original panel).

Finally, the biggest question/curiosity I have is, assuming a large enough battery bank, could one theoretically be able to replace the 1500w inverter with a 3000w inverter, upgrade wiring, and then run the AC for a few hours here and there if needed? Or is there more to it?

I know there are other inverter/electric threads and I've read through them but it's difficult to sort through what's applicable and what's just opinions/off topic. I'm left unsure. This is a new language for me. I'm considering consulting a local pro to give me final guidance. I was hoping maybe someone here has done the above or has the knowledge to say "should work/doable" or "you're over your head hire a pro".

Thanks everyone.

 

[Centex]

I'll start with the gross generalization that IMO one can't have too much rooftop solar panel capacity if planning for off-grid adventures.

I have chosen:
One, 200w solar panel. Comes with the 100 | 20 MPPT

Given your stated long-term aspirations, I'd carefully consider the solar panel options offered by ETI. Think and investigate carefully all that's involved with adding rooftop panels in terms of costs and efforts whether DIYing or having a 3rd party do the work (the latter can be eye-popping for truly competent work).

IME (BTDT), the work involved in adding rooftop panels can be 'sporting' on many fronts. Not saying it can't be done, obviously many of us have with good / great results, but it presents a different and IMO generally more difficult set of challenges than all of the much easier 'interior' equipment upgrades you mention.

The ETI solar panel options are not inexpensive, but they might be a good value in the long-term big-picture for you (only you can determine that).

Just for your consideration, Have Fun!

 

[Selkirk]

I think the base solar package is an adequate starting point for a modest off-grid solar build. However, a substantial upgrade will be required to support AC operation. You would need a lot more supplemental solar, larger/additional charge controllers, and a larger converter in order to charge 600ah worth of batteries in a reasonable timeframe. It would also require the 120v system to be reworked in order for a larger/upgraded inverter to feed the Air Conditioner circuits rather than just the standard power outlets. There won't be much of the original system remaining after all is said and done.

If the upgrade is a long-term goal, and you intend to get good use out of the base system for a few years, I'd go ahead and configure as you suggested (though I'd be tempted to add at least one more roof panel).

However, if you plan to upgrade in the near-term, it might make more sense to look at ETI's more robust power package options designed to support AC operation from the start (with additional rooftop panels, larger solar controller, Victron Multiplus 3000w inverter/charger, etc). Or configure with no solar and custom build after delivery.

 

[EZAdventures]

That's fantastic advice and I didn't know if having them do one panel provided enough infrastructure to make it "easier" to finish the job but I have read the stories of mysteriously missing panels that fell victim to wind shear or improper adhesion. I asked ETI if they could install the one panel on the front so I would only have to worry about the back but they said no. I didn't know if I could better utilize the space/get more wattage out of doing the rest of it myself. I'll have to consider this. $1200 for two additional panels.

 

[EZAdventures]

I think the base solar package is an adequate starting point for a modest off-grid solar build. However, a substantial upgrade will be required to support AC operation. You would need a lot more supplemental solar, larger/additional charge controllers, and a larger converter in order to charge 600ah worth of batteries in a reasonable timeframe. It would also require the 120v system to be reworked in order for a larger/upgraded inverter to feed the Air Conditioner circuits rather than just the standard power outlets. There won't be much of the original system remaining after all is said and done.

If the upgrade is a long-term goal, and you intend to get good use out of the base system for a few years, I'd go ahead and configure as you suggested (though I'd be tempted to add at least one more roof panel).

However, if you plan to upgrade in the near-term, it might make more sense to look at ETI's more robust power package options designed to support AC operation from the start (with additional rooftop panels, larger solar controller, Victron Multiplus 3000w inverter/charger, etc). Or configure with no solar and custom build after delivery.

This is exactly what I was wondering (and missing) in the process of going from what I've laid out to what I want. I don't know much of anything about reworking of the 120v. The "Zap" pack it seems would do a lot of the "reworking" for me.

 

[Selkirk]

This is exactly what I was wondering (and missing) in the process of going from what I've laid out to what I want. I don't know much of anything about reworking of the 120v. The "Zap" pack it seems would do a lot of the "reworking" for me.

ETI might have changed things, but at the time I configured my trailer, the 1500w inverter output was routed through a transfer switch that only supplies power to the AC outlet circuits via a secondary breaker panel. I believe the "Zap Pack" inverter set-up supplies power to the whole trailer (or at least adds the AC circuit).

 

[EZAdventures]

I think you're right (but what do I know?) based on what I'm reading. The Zap Pack would include a 3000w inverter that would run the AC.

Thank you so much for this information.

 

[Centex]

but I have read the stories of mysteriously missing panels that fell victim to wind shear or improper adhesion.

Methinks that those are rather dated episodes and no longer meaningful. ETI has been using very robust bolt-through PV panel mounting methods and locations for quite some time now, with no anecdotes of failure of those that I can recall. It's those robust through-bolted mounting methods that I refer to as presenting "sporting" cost and effort to implement as a post-build undertaking.

To further clarify / expand on my post above, my suggestion relates only to the rooftop-panels and is based on the build-options and pricing presented on ETI's website for the 21C today (I looked at that before I posted above).

If cost is a concern, I would not hesitate to take a minimal-options approach with all of the other equipment being discussed, anticipating some meaningful cost savings could be realized by upgrading those items post-build on a DIY basis, tailored to the wants and needs you identify as you gain experience by using your trailer.

If cost is not a concern, by all means I'd go with all of the ETI options that are required to meet my long-term aspirations. IMO ETI has made a lot of progress in this area lately and all of the equipment and installations they offer from the factory seem to be top-notch now (albeit at a price).

 

[jjdeluca]

I'd echo what Alan (Centex) and Selkirk have advised above. However if you enjoy DIY projects and are somewhat handy, you may want to consider ordering your 21C with the standard lead acid battery and no solar/inverter options.
Then you could install your own custom system, rather than having to replace the 1500w inverter, batteries (AGM from ETI and your initial 100ah lithium) and upgrade the wiring (much of the ETI-installed wire will be undersized). This option would be significantly less expensive than the phased approach or than having ETI install the full package up front.
However if you're not comfortable in doing your own installation and budget isn't major concern, perhaps having ETI do the full (Zap Pack?) solar/lithium would be better.
Best wishes in whichever way you decide to go!

 

[camp4528]

I have a couple of points to make, but based more on current and past research, than on direct ETI experience. So please take all this with a grain of salt.

I noticed in another thread you were exploring a 12V electric compressor fridge, rather than a propane/120V absorption fridge. If you plan to go forward with this, I would start off with roof-mounted solar panels and Lithium batterie(s), and plan to bring supplementary portable solar capabilities so you are more likely to be able to charge up

You referred to only occasional use of the AC. I wonder whether a "small" generator might get you over that hurdle rather than the expense of the more heavy-duty 3000W 120V electrical system. IMHO 1500W is plenty for most off-grid camping uses - microwave, induction cooktop, small 120V appliances, etc. That generator could also come in handy if there are extended periods of limited solar.

I consider myself "handy" for electrical and very limited construction projects (we will not talk about plumbing, or climbing onto things). But I would be inclined to get the ETI off-the-shelf solution for what I expect to need for the basic trailer systems, because you'll get better support from ETI, can start your end-goal camping experience sooner, and any $$$ spend on this purchase, including options, you'll likely get back in 30-50 years when you're finally ready to sell.

These are just my opinions. Only you (and possibly your partner) know your DIY skills and enthusiasm and your "capital/purchase" budget for this trailer as well as the financing costs. As Centex so often says, YMMV.

 

[DT6]

If you add panels on your own, make sure you read up on past issues with the front solar panel coming loose and flying off. The problem is solved now, but it does illustrate that any solar panel DIY installation should be done with careful planning. There was a discussion recently where an owner lost a flexible panel they taped down and the cause was likely using alcohol vs. acetone to clean the surface prior to taping. A little detail like that caused the loss of a panel and hopefully that loss didn't cause a problem for anyone driving behind them.

If it were me, I would add every solar panel ETI will put on the trailer. You can almost never have enough, and if you are out in rainy/cloudy weather for several days any "extra" solar capacity will be instantly appreciated, especially talking the capacities you mentioned.

Another recent post discussed adding an A/B switch that lets you have two separate power banks, or you can run them all at once. I like this idea as I can run my regular setup most of the time, but I can switch to a backup battery bank if needed. I can charge them all easily with shore power or over a day or two with good sunlight with the panels.

 

[Selkirk]

FWIW....

At the time I ordered my trailer. I knew a basic off grid set-up would meet my needs in the short term, but would likely require a future upgrade once I start to travel more extensively......and especially if I ever replaced the absorption fridge with a compressor fridge.

I configured my trailer with as much rooftop solar as possible at the time (2 panels), the lithium-ready package, and 2x6V lead acid batteries. I figured that additional panels would be the most difficult thing to retrofit after the fact, so opted to save myself future hassle and have them factory installed. The lithium-ready option should make it quite simple for me to upgrade to 200-300 AH worth of LiPo batteries, which will be plenty for my needs. Pretty much everything I need to power can be done so with 12v DC, so I don't have any immediate plans to install an inverter.

Prices for lithium seem to have come down substantially....even within the 18 months since I took delivery. I'll probably convert once the original 6v batteries give up the ghost.

 

[EZAdventures]

Methinks that those are rather dated episodes and no longer meaningful. ETI has been using very robust bolt-through PV panel mounting methods and locations for quite some time now, with no anecdotes of failure of those that I can recall. It's those robust through-bolted mounting methods that I refer to as presenting "sporting" cost and effort to implement as a post-build undertaking.

Sorry! I wasn't very clear. I was referring to stories of owners having their own personally installed panels fly off not factory/ETI installed panels. I would be happy to have ETI do it all so I didn't have to worry. I think I understand what you're saying and my own opinion is that I'd want to keep my handywork out of it! Haha

I'd echo what Alan (Centex) and Selkirk have advised above. However if you enjoy DIY projects and are somewhat handy, you may want to consider ordering your 21C with the standard lead acid battery and no solar/inverter options.
Then you could install your own custom system, rather than having to replace the 1500w inverter, batteries (AGM from ETI and your initial 100ah lithium) and upgrade the wiring (much of the ETI-installed wire will be undersized). This option would be significantly less expensive than the phased approach or than having ETI install the full package up front.
However if you're not comfortable in doing your own installation and budget isn't major concern, perhaps having ETI do the full (Zap Pack?) solar/lithium would be better.
Best wishes in whichever way you decide to go!

I am more willing than capable when it comes to electric I'm afraid and all of the input above is making it clear it may well be worth the extra money to have it all done by ETI.

I have a couple of points to make, but based more on current and past research, than on direct ETI experience. So please take all this with a grain of salt.

I noticed in another thread you were exploring a 12V electric compressor fridge, rather than a propane/120V absorption fridge. If you plan to go forward with this, I would start off with roof-mounted solar panels and Lithium batterie(s), and plan to bring supplementary portable solar capabilities so you are more likely to be able to charge up

You referred to only occasional use of the AC. I wonder whether a "small" generator might get you over that hurdle rather than the expense of the more heavy-duty 3000W 120V electrical system. IMHO 1500W is plenty for most off-grid camping uses - microwave, induction cooktop, small 120V appliances, etc. That generator could also come in handy if there are extended periods of limited solar.

I consider myself "handy" for electrical and very limited construction projects (we will not talk about plumbing, or climbing onto things). But I would be inclined to get the ETI off-the-shelf solution for what I expect to need for the basic trailer systems, because you'll get better support from ETI, can start your end-goal camping experience sooner, and any $$$ spend on this purchase, including options, you'll likely get back in 30-50 years when you're finally ready to sell.

These are just my opinions. Only you (and possibly your partner) know your DIY skills and enthusiasm and your "capital/purchase" budget for this trailer as well as the financing costs. As Centex so often says, YMMV.

You are absolutely correct about the generator being sufficient for "here and there" energy needs beyond 1500 watts. My wife and I have decided we'd like to do what we can to remain as self contained as we can, so we are looking into doing as much from solar energy as possible; endgame at least.

-------

To all of you I greatly appreciate the quick input and ideas. Every day we get closer to finalizing I worry I'm making the wrong choice. At the end of the day the Zap Pack appears to upgrade everything in a very meaningful way in regards to out goals and would take a lot of stress of us to learn and complete upgrades on the electric which is invaluable to me.

 

[CE Vogel]

I'm not sure if this post is most appropriate for Shopping Escape or Escape Systems.
I want to ensure I'm making the most practical AND economic choice on the electric for our 21C build.

I have chosen:
One, 200w solar panel. Comes with the 100 | 20 MPPT
1500w inverter. Comes with transfer switch.
Lithium ready Comes with DC to DC charger. Ships with AGM battery.

My plan/hopes for future:
Based on what little info I have, have read, and was told I would like to immediately replace the AGM and install the 100ah lithium battery from my current pop-up camper. Then in the next few years I would like to install a bigger battery or two (300ah x 2?). I'm assuming all the equipment will work just need to respec things like the Victron battery monitor. (I know I'll need to consider the new battery specs in terms of charging/discharging etc)

I plan to eventually install one more panel on the roof to run with the current panel into the MPPT that came with it and then install and second MPPT to handle the Zamp port and the portable solar needs. (I know I'll need to understand voltages/amperages on the additional panel and coordinate that with the original panel).

Finally, the biggest question/curiosity I have is, assuming a large enough battery bank, could one theoretically be able to replace the 1500w inverter with a 3000w inverter, upgrade wiring, and then run the AC for a few hours here and there if needed? Or is there more to it?

I know there are other inverter/electric threads and I've read through them but it's difficult to sort through what's applicable and what's just opinions/off topic. I'm left unsure. This is a new language for me. I'm considering consulting a local pro to give me final guidance. I was hoping maybe someone here has done the above or has the knowledge to say "should work/doable" or "you're over your head hire a pro".

Thanks everyone.

Running an AC on batteries is hard, with two major issues. Roughly speaking, each hour of AC operation requires one 100AH Lithium battery. Then you need sufficient solar to recharge the battery(s).

The details get complex: a 3000W inverter requires upwards of 250A input at 12V; most 100A Lithium batteries are limited to 100A discharge rate, so three 100A Lithium batteries would be required to support a 3000W inverter. This will give you about three hours AC, if nothing else is operating. Since solar panels provide at best five hours peak charge per day in the summer in full sun, you would need at least 900W (60A) of solar panels to recharge in one day, again if nothing else is operating. If you're parked in shade, or camping in the shoulder seasons, you need much more solar panel capacity.

My trailer (not an Escape) has three 100AH Lithium batteries, a 200W solar panel, a large 12V compressor refrigerator, three MaxxAire fans, the usual lights and a 1500W inverter. In July and August in direct sun, my solar panels can barely keep my batteries charged if I don't use the inverter. If I'm parked in shade, I need to run my generator every 2 - 3 days.

I suggest you go for the maximum solar panels Escape offers. That way, the panel mounting, wiring and solar controllers are designed accordingly, and gives you future options. You will really appreciate the extra solar if you install a compressor refrigerator (I love mine!) while still offering limited use of the inverter. If you really want to run AC on batteries, then get the Zap Pack, it will save you a lot of future rewiring. But I think practicality leans toward using a generator to run AC.

 

[iamunique127]

My wife and I like to be as self-sufficient as possible, too. We come from a tenting background and sort of continue to camp that way even now we have our Escape. We mostly cook outside using propane so have no need for an inverter. Our 3-way fridge operating on propane suits us well and means our need for 12V power is much less than if we had the 12V-only fridge.

Given the above, our two 6-volt batteries and 160W solar panel provide more than enough power for our meager needs. On the odd occasion we want to use the air conditioner we stay somewhere with shore power.

All that to say you may find you do not need to upgrade your solar or batteries, depending on how you actually tend to camp. In that case, the wait-and-see approach might work for you. On the other hand, if you really want to be prepared for all the what-ifs you may want to have ETI do the heavy lifting. I don't mind doing projects but from reading all the electrical upgrade threads here on the forum I know I'd chose to get ETI to do the electrical work if I were to order another trailer. Adding solar panels and designing an electrical system is no mean feat IMO.

Of course that is us and obviously everyone's style of camping is different. Only you know what you prefer and what your needs are.

 

[EZAdventures]

I can't say how helpful all this input has been. I was overestimating my skill to some degree in the interest of saving a few bucks but having read your advice I've decided I'll likely be losing in the long run when it comes to my stress level and money, paying someone to do it and/or re-doing things.

My wife and I talked last night. Based on our goals we've decided to have ETI install the Zap Pack with two 100aH LiFePo4 and all three panels. This would hopefully only leave a battery upgrade for us in the future if we wanted more capacity. I still may install another MPPT dedicated to the Zamp port to allow for a larger portable solar option but to know it'll come from the factory with everything we could need gives us peace of mind that is priceless.

 

[Selkirk]

I was reading about Victron MultiPlus inverter last night....and it has some innovative features.

If I understand correctly, it is capable of supplementing incoming AC power with battery inverter power to drive larger loads. In other words, you have the option of extending Air Conditioning run time with less-than-ideal battery/solar capacity by using a relatively low-power compact generator. That's a pretty neat feature!

 

[EZAdventures]

I was reading about Victron MultiPlus inverter last night....and it has some innovative features.

If I understand correctly, it is capable of supplementing incoming AC power with battery inverter power to drive larger loads. In other words, you have the option of extending Air Conditioning run time with less-than-ideal battery/solar capacity by using a relatively low-power compact generator. That's a pretty neat feature!

Since we decided to go with the Zap Pack last evening I've had a wonderful time learning the details of what it includes. I've very excited.

 

[John in Santa Cruz]

frankly, after a bunch of RVs and camping experience, I'm of the opinion, you should use it as it comes for at least a few trips and figure out what the limitations are for you. I found us often dry camping and sometimes for up to a week, so I went for bigger battery capacity and solar, but I upgraded that myself years after we bought the trailer. The basic Escape configurations are very usable right out of the factory.

 

[hugh]

Running an AC on batteries is hard, with two major issues. Roughly speaking, each hour of AC operation requires one 100AH Lithium battery. Then you need sufficient solar to recharge the battery(s).

Speaking as someone who runs their AC on batteries, generally speaking, you'll get more than one hour per 100Ah because the AC doesn't run at 100% duty cycle. It obviously depends on the ambient temperature, but we get about 24h of runtime on our 920Ah battery bank.

Whether you need to be able to recharge the battery bank on solar depends on your use case. We typically use the battery powered AC on one night stays on the way to somewhere else, and then just plugin to recharge when we get there.