Lithium upgrade to 2023 5.0 with twin 6V + solar panel

BritCanuck

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Aug 23, 2018
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Location
Nanaimo, British Columbia.
Looking for expert opinions on gotchas for doing a lithium upgrade.

Current spec provided as installed by Escape :-

2023 5.0 with U-dinette.
Twin 6V lead acid batteries + 200W solar panel
Victron shunt (BMV 712 smart monitor) plus 100/30 MPPT solar charger.
WFCO WF-8955-AD (will upgrade to PD4655V)

Looking at installing a LiTime 400AH battery and a 3000W inverter.

New system will be way overkill for what we'll actually use, but I only want to do this once. Basically using a toaster, coffee maker, kettle on the inverter. Possibly our Broughton 9500 AC unit as well for short periods.

AFAIK all the existing components are lithium ready. My concerns are with any new fuses required and cable gauges? Think I'm gonna need a 250A fuse? Issue with Break away cable? Need a bigger battery disconnect switch? Also I drive a 2022 F150.

Thanks.
 
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Hey Chris - We have a 2024 5.0 with U-shaped dinette and did a similar lithium upgrade & solar install shortly after purchase. I installed 2-250watt panels on the roof and 4-100ah LiTime batteries with BMV-712 and 100/50 MPPT controller.
I later added a 3000watt inverter, automatic transfer switch and sub-panel to run the microwave, outlets & Houghton 9.5K AC unit.
I had planned on upgrading the WFCO with the PD4655V but found that the factory WFCO in our 5.0 does support lithium batteries (w/"Auto-Detect"), so I just went with it.

I'm by no means and "expert" but did a lot of research and, like you, just wanted to "do it once".

In terms of cable sizes & fuses, I used 4/0 welding cable between the battery bank and inverter with a 250A Class T fuse between the battery and battery disconnect switch (factory switch should be OK, but I opted to replace with a 600V Blue Sea switch). I also used a 125A MRBF fuse on each of the pos. battery terminals.

Not sure if you already have a DC-DC charger or if you plan to install one? (needed if you plan to charge battery from your tow vehicle while driving) I installed a Renogy DCC1212-20 charger and set it to 10amps (didn't want to overload the wiring in our F150) & ran new 6 gauge wire from the DC-DC charger to the 7 pin junction box, taking care so as to not disable the breakaway cable function (followed another post I'd found on this forum).

It was a tight squeeze getting everything in the rear of the dinette, but it's been working great so far.
Best of luck with your install, and feel free to reach out if I can be of assistance.
Jim
 

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Hey Chris - We have a 2024 5.0 with U-shaped dinette and did a similar lithium upgrade & solar install shortly after purchase. I installed 2-250watt panels on the roof and 4-100ah LiTime batteries with BMV-712 and 100/50 MPPT controller.
I later added a 3000watt inverter, automatic transfer switch and sub-panel to run the microwave, outlets & Houghton 9.5K AC unit.
I had planned on upgrading the WFCO with the PD4655V but found that the factory WFCO in our 5.0 does support lithium batteries (w/"Auto-Detect"), so I just went with it.

I'm by no means and "expert" but did a lot of research and, like you, just wanted to "do it once".

In terms of cable sizes & fuses, I used 4/0 welding cable between the battery bank and inverter with a 250A Class T fuse between the battery and battery disconnect switch (factory switch should be OK, but I opted to replace with a 600V Blue Sea switch). I also used a 125A MRBF fuse on each of the pos. battery terminals.

Not sure if you already have a DC-DC charger or if you plan to install one? (needed if you plan to charge battery from your tow vehicle while driving) I installed a Renogy DCC1212-20 charger and set it to 10amps (didn't want to overload the wiring in our F150) & ran new 6 gauge wire from the DC-DC charger to the 7 pin junction box, taking care so as to not disable the breakaway cable function (followed another post I'd found on this forum).

It was a tight squeeze getting everything in the rear of the dinette, but it's been working great so far.
Best of luck with your install, and feel free to reach out if I can be of assistance.
Jim

Thanks Jim very useful. We've got the extended rear dinette, so hoping space won't be an issue. Which transfer switch did you use?

As for charging from my F150 my current understanding is it basically trickle charges when connected and the truck is running? And no fear of back charging into the F150 when it's off, it's disconnected I think. I'm not bothered about changing that.
 
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We used the Progressive Dynamics ATS:

Again, I'm not an expert, and could be wrong, but my understanding is that, since LifePo4 batteries are at a slightly higher voltage that your F150 battery, they could back charge into your truck, which is why you need a DC-DC charger when upgrading to lithium.
The other option some folks choose is to disconnect the charging capability between the tow vehicle & trailer altogether. With sufficient solar on the roof, you're still charging while driving, just not from the tow vehicle.
 
We used the Progressive Dynamics ATS:

Again, I'm not an expert, and could be wrong, but my understanding is that, since LifePo4 batteries are at a slightly higher voltage that your F150 battery, they could back charge into your truck, which is why you need a DC-DC charger when upgrading to lithium.
The other option some folks choose is to disconnect the charging capability between the tow vehicle & trailer altogether. With sufficient solar on the roof, you're still charging while driving, just not from the tow vehicle.
Gotcha. Research seems to indicate minimal risk as the wire gauge back to the truck is pretty small so low current potential feeding back. Does disconnecting the charging pin at the trailer end mess up the break away braking? Think that's the one issue I'm not clear on at the moment,
 
Does disconnecting the charging pin at the trailer end mess up the break away braking? Think that's the one issue I'm not clear on at the moment
This thread should be helpful:
 
Haven't decided yet. Any recommendations?
Not really. Depends on what you want to do. I was going to suggest you read the inverter manuals (Operation, Installation) for guidance on wire size, fuse type and size. You should be able to download the manuals for the inverters you are interested in. You should also be able to look up the continuous and peak load ratings to see if it can handle the loads you plan. Also, help determine if you need soft start on an A/C if you want to run it too.

For example, the inverter I have is rated at 2400 watts continuous and 6000 watts peak output.
 
As for charging from my F150 my current understanding is it basically trickle charges when connected and the truck is running? And no fear of back charging into the F150 when it's off, it's disconnected I think. I'm not bothered about changing that.
Fully charged lithium batteries are about one volt higher than a lead acid battery. This is why you should never connect them together. While your F150 may disconnect the charge line when not running, it will connect the truck battery to the trailer battery while running. If the trailer lithium battery is fully charged, it WILL back feed into your F150. This could result in overcharging the F150 battery, and will result in partial discharge of the trailer lithium battery. Conversely, if the trailer lithium battery is nearly discharged, it will accept a charge from the F150, but never fully charge. In any case, no harm to the trailer lithium battery, possible harm to the F150 battery. A DC-DC converter in the charge line resolves all these issues.
 
Gotcha. Research seems to indicate minimal risk as the wire gauge back to the truck is pretty small so low current potential feeding back. Does disconnecting the charging pin at the trailer end mess up the break away braking? Think that's the one issue I'm not clear on at the moment,
A DC to DC charger allows one-way flow only. The breakaway switch for emergency braking is typically powered by the charging line from the tow vehicle to the battery(ies) because of two-way flow. If a DC to DC charger uses the charging wire from the vehicle, there will be no emergency braking. A separate line directly from the battery(ies) bypassing the DC to DC charger will need to be installed to preserve emergency braking, or a second dedicated line from the tow vehicle to the DC to DC charger. I (personally) ascribe to the school of thought that disconnects and caps the charging line from the vehicle at the junction box. Most of the time my single 165 watt solar panel keeps my two 100 AH lithium batteries fully charged while towing.
 
Just to add to what C&G and others have said. The breakaway switch circuit is required to not have any manual switches or fuses. It can have a self-resetting circuit breaker. I think your 200-watt panel will provide about 60Ah to 80Ah during a sunny day. This may be enough to replace charging from the tow vehicle but depends on your use. If you like to travel in mountainous areas or camp in the trees, it won't be enough.
 
I have three 300 watt dumfume lithium batteries (highly rated by will prouse). 405 watts of solar (slightly more than I should have). 4 gauge wire between batteries and 100 amp fuse between batteries and inverter. Charges and runs everything fine (except I can’t get the a/c to turn on). Mine is way overkill because when we boondock, we always have a generator.
 
Toaster's current needs are variable, but FYI/FWIW, my toaster draws ~115-120A of battery current (12v). Do the round trip calc for wire gauges for between battery and inverter but probably, as mentioned above, you'll be looking at 4/0 (depending upon the roundtrip distance between the battery and inverter)...and, of course, suitably rated fuse(s) in between.
 
Looking for expert opinions on gotchas for doing a lithium upgrade.

...
Looking at installing a LiTime 400AH battery and a 3000W inverter.
...

whats the max sustained output current of that 400AH battery? a 3000W inverter might draw as much as 300 amps at 12VDC, and that will require like 4/0 gauge copper wire directly from the battery, which is huge.
 
Yep think this is what I will do.
I disconnected the charging wire at the junction box. There has only been one time I wished I hadn't and that was when I was camping along the Clearwater and the Selway rivers in Idaho. I had to go look for shore power to charge the batteries (that is another story). I have 1060 watts of solar on top of the trailer. It wasn't enough in the narrow valley and trees. Even when I camped in an opening in the trees part of the time, the adjacent mountains cut the daylight hours and then a day or two of clouds did me in. This has happened in other areas, but I didn't stay in those areas very long.

The point I want to make is that it is relatively easy to reconfigure the charging system so the tow vehicle can charge the lithium battery very efficiently. The first time you are a long way from shore power with nearly dead batteries and poor solar recovery, you will start thinking about what you did.

Right now, I drop voltage from 24 volts to 12 volts for the DC panel, and I use a $15 transformer to drop 24 to 12 volts for the breakaway switch. I would have had to add a 12 - 24 volt DC - DC charger for the charging wire from the tow vehicle. I thought I had enough solar to not worry about it. I do except when everything lines up on the bad side.
 
I just went to the LiTime website, and did not see a 400Ah battery. I did see a 460Ah hour battery; it's BMS is rated for 250A, so as John says, it will not run a 3000W inverter by itself. For about the same price, you can purchase two LiTime 230Ah or 260Ah batteries, each with a 200A BMS. Wire the batteries in parallel and you have 400 amps available to run your inverter. And yes, you will need crazy thick wires to handle the current.
 
I just went to the LiTime website, and did not see a 400Ah battery. I did see a 460Ah hour battery; it's BMS is rated for 250A, so as John says, it will not run a 3000W inverter by itself. For about the same price, you can purchase two LiTime 230Ah or 260Ah batteries, each with a 200A BMS. Wire the batteries in parallel and you have 400 amps available to run your inverter. And yes, you will need crazy thick wires to handle the current.

Here's the battery I'm looking at :-

400AH battery

BMS is rated at 250A continuous discharge (not that I'd ever get close to that). So that's a good fit for a 3000W invertor, no? 12V x 250A = 3000W maxed out? Think my Broughton 9500 might hit 160A at startup.

2 gauge wire is suitable for this on short runs? Less than 5 ft.
 
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