Lithium upgrade to 2023 5.0 with twin 6V + solar panel

[occer]

I jusr read these three pages

 

[BritCanuck]

A few things:
I don't think you will need a pre-charge circuit with a Multplus. I have the 3000 for 5 years, don't have a separate pre-charge circuit and never had a spark. I just asked on the Victron Energy Facebook page if pre-charge is necessary and received the following responses. 1) No. 2) not necessary if the voltage presence wire is connected because it will do pre-charging. 3) No if the battery bank is large enough. 4) Not if AC is connected because AC will charge them. 5) A person who I think is a monitor, but who I know is very knowledgeable about Victron equipment, says No but some people like to do it.

When calculating the wire sizes I always sized DC circuits for 3% or less voltage drop. BlueSea has a nice app that I use for this purpose. It is on the Home Page of BlueSea: Blue Sea Systems - Relentlessly Reliable™

I included pictures of my panels. It is very difficult for me to crawl under the table to check breakers and fuses so I relocated the panels. I think the AC breaker in the top right corner is similar to what Alan was talking about. In my case it is an ELCI breaker and I have no idea if it is really required. I read somewhere that it is needed. I think it is probably overkill. I don't recommend anyone do what I did but it is pretty easy to use. The picture of the back side of the panel is before the panel was finished and tidied up.

Thanks Bob. Quick question....how far away from the Cerbo can its screen be located? Is it just an HDMI cable connection, or other options? I'd like to put the 7" info screen by the trailer door, but the Cerbo will have to be under the dinnette. Not sure if this is possible.

 

[Centex]

Think I'm going to basically copy your design.

That statement makes me a bit uncomfortable.

I urge you to carefully scrutinize and independently verify the suitability of my, or any other source schematics, you may 'copy' in whole or in part.

Be aware that the 15th revision 'as-built' schematic I posted continues to be superseded / revised as I occasionally make tweaks to my build for a variety of reasons related to safety, function, and operational convenience

 

[BritCanuck]

I urge you to carefully scrutinize and independently verify the suitability of my, or any other source schematics, you may 'copy' in whole or in part.

For sure!

 

[Centex]

BlueSea has a nice app that I use for this purpose. It is on the Home Page of BlueSea: Blue Sea Systems - Relentlessly Reliable™

I. too, rely on the BlueSea Circuit Wizard app for wire-sizing guidance.

 

[BobG-ESC]

Thanks Bob. Quick question....how far away from the Cerbo can its screen be located? Is it just an HDMI cable connection, or other options? I'd like to put the 7" info screen by the trailer door, but the Cerbo will have to be under the dinnette. Not sure if this is possible.

I am pretty sure the HDMI cable is 6' but you should check. I think it can be extended with a high-quality HDMI cable. The USB (power) part of the cable is only a few inches long located at the end of the cable. It needs to be plugged into a USB port with the required power. The Cerbo has a USB port that is next to the HDMI port that is used for this purpose. I don't know how far you can extend the USB portion of the cable. You could probably find out these answers from the dealer you buy the equipment from.

It is probably possible, but I don't know how to do it.

 

[BobG-ESC]

Chris, When I was where you are now with Victron and Escape, I joined Facebook and two groups: Victron Energy and Victron Powered Camper. I found lots of answers there and when I asked a question, I got good answers. Victron Energy has very knowledgeable Victron people and the Camper group is where you could find answers to how long you can extend the Touch 70 cable. There will be a lot of people there who figured that out. I got the answer to pre-charging the Multiplus from the Victron Energy Group. More answers have come in that clarify not having to have a pre-charge circuit. From what I have read on the Escape forum, it sounds to me like Escape includes a pre-charge circuit so there may be a situation where you need one.

 

[BobG-ESC]

I am pretty sure the HDMI cable is 6' but you should check. I think it can be extended with a high-quality HDMI cable. The USB (power) part of the cable is only a few inches long located at the end of the cable. It needs to be plugged into a USB port with the required power. The Cerbo has a USB port that is next to the HDMI port that is used for this purpose. I don't know how far you can extend the USB portion of the cable. You could probably find out these answers from the dealer you buy the equipment from.

It is probably possible, but I don't know how to do it.

I am pretty sure you can extend the cables. Extending cabling is done all the time in other applications.

If you want remote access for monitoring the system, controlling the system, updating firmware, programming, or location and geofencing (requires a USB GPS antenna connected to the Cerbo) and provide a means for the Cerbo to connect to Victron's Victron Remote Management (VRM) portal (it is free) it can be done if connected to the Internet or GSM network. The Cerbo can connect to the Internet via Ethernet or WiFi. or it can connect to a Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) network for data only. I originally used the Internet for access to the VRM network but that was expensive for either a separate phone line and phone for a hotspot in the trailer or using a Verizon Jet Pack for MiFi. Eventually, I figured out how to use GSM which is very inexpensive (after cost of GSM cell modem). $11/m or less to as low as $3/m (I think) depending on how much data you want to use. The monthly charge is only if it is used. If it isn't used (turned off in the trailer) then no charge for the month. I can help you set up GSM access if you decide to do that. It is another of those steep learning curves that is easy once you figure it out.

 

[BritCanuck]

So looking at my current Escape install on my twin 6v batteries, any idea what gauge this negative/ground cable is? It’s just over 12mm diameter with insulation. 1/0 AWG?

 

[John in Santa Cruz]

You need to measure the conductor, not the insulation... 1/0 wire has a 8.26mm conductor.

 

[BritCanuck]

You need to measure the conductor, not the insulation... 1/0 wire has a 8.26mm conductor.

Yep I know, I'm guestimating. I'd have to cut the cable to measure it properly.

 

[meassick]

You can also use an android phone or tablet to connect to the Cerbo GX via its built-in hotspot. You will have the full functionality of the Victron display but dont have to run an HDMI cable to it. I just used an old android phone and it works. Here are instructions on how to do it Android GX WiFi Display

Also, I have a starlink mini in our 5.0 that I use to allow the Cerbo GX to connect to the internet and use Victron VRM to access it. This works very well, even when the mini is in standby mode that still allows communications at 700kbit/s. The standby mode is $5 per month. At first I was going to permanently mount the mini either to the inside of the escape skylight above the bed or on top of our Houghton heatpump on the roof, but now I just keep it in the upper cabinets by the bed where it faces up and is powered by our always-on 120VAC outlet (Powered by a Victron Multiplus in combination with 1200W of solar and 920Ah of storage). This location works surprisingly well considering that a substantial part of the mini's view is blocked by solar panels we have on the roof (the fiberglass roof is transparant to this RF, the solar panels are not). Using this location allows me to relocate the mini to an outside location in a very short period of time if needed and the unit is not visible so there is no theft or damage risk.

 

[BritCanuck]

You can also use an android phone or tablet to connect to the Cerbo GX via its built-in hotspot. You will have the full functionality of the Victron display but dont have to run an HDMI cable to it. I just used an old android phone and it works. Here are instructions on how to do it Android GX WiFi Display

Also, I have a starlink mini in our 5.0 that I use to allow the Cerbo GX to connect to the internet and use Victron VRM to access it. This works very well, even when the mini is in standby mode that still allows communications at 700kbit/s. The standby mode is $5 per month. At first I was going to permanently mount the mini either to the inside of the escape skylight above the bed or on top of our Houghton heatpump on the roof, but now I just keep it in the upper cabinets by the bed where it faces up and is powered by our always-on 120VAC outlet (Powered by a Victron Multiplus in combination with 1200W of solar and 920Ah of storage). This location works surprisingly well considering that a substantial part of the mini's view is blocked by solar panels we have on the roof (the fiberglass roo is transparant to this RF, the solar panels are not). Using this location allows me to relocate the mini to an outside location in a very short period of time if needed and the unit is not visible so there is no theft or damage risk.

Yep I've got the Starlink Mini. I put in a separate 12V (30V in reality) external port for it on the trailer so it's always outside.

Dedicated DC external Starlink Mini port install.

Latest mod. Putting in a dedicated trailer DC feed for our Starlink Mini dish. The Mini will run off 12V direct but if using long cables you will have a voltage drop. So you need to step up the voltage. I took a 12V tap off the nearby USB/12V socket under the dinette. Installed a Victron 12 to...

www.escapeforum.org

 

[BritCanuck]

I mentioned the PD AC split-bus panel as an alternative to having two separate AC panels and retaining the bulky WFCO Power Center which is largely rendered redundant when you install an all-in-one inverter / converter / transfer switch like a Multiplus or similar (in my case a Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 rather than a Victron Multiplus).

• Some folks retain the WFCO Power Center just for the AC/DC distribution panels, adding a separate second AC panel, removing or bypassing the WFCO converter electrics, and re-wiring the AC inputs / outputs and DC input accordingly. That's certainly viable.
• After considering several approaches my preference was to completely remove the bulky weight of the WFCO Power Center and replace it with the PD panels. IMO the AC-side rewiring is essentially the same, the transfer of DC-side outputs to the PD DC panel was easy, and the result of the one-time effort is a more straightforward / compact / 'sanitary' arrangement of components and wires in my electrical-components space. The cost was worth it to me, I much prefer 'clean' solutions, YMMV, no worries!

BTW, the previously mentioned notion of possibly modifying a WFCO Power Center AC distribution panel to a split-bus / 'two-panel' configuration strikes me as fraught with risk and high-effort, if it's possible at all.

Only you can decide what's advantageous / 'best' for you among the many possible approaches. IMO / IME one must take the time and effort to carefully consider / draw detailed schematics / mock-up alternatives down to the excruciating details to find your best solution. I don't believe one can successfully achieve that goal by trying to work this out only in your head / mind's eye.

So I notice on your design your max fan and bathroom fan have their own DC circuits/fuses, as well as vent hood and water pumped CO monitor. None of these appear to be fused separately on my WFCO DC board, unless Escape have ganged them all together in the back with others, e.g. lights?

 

[Centex]

The DC distribution assignments / fuse ratings on the schematic are not accurate, I suppose I need to update that.

None of these appear to be fused separately on my WFCO DC board, unless Escape have ganged them all together in the back with others, e.g. lights?

Upon taking delivery of my trailer, before undertaking any mods, I flipped each AC breaker / pulled each DC fuse in turn to determine what device(s) were on each circuit. If a device you have isn't listed it means I did not have that item on my trailer as delivered (I ordered my trailer without any MaxFan installed - it was delivered 'loose'; no exterior outlets of any kind; etc).

Please see the attached FYI, yours may differ.

 

[BobG-ESC]

You can also use an android phone or tablet to connect to the Cerbo GX via its built-in hotspot. You will have the full functionality of the Victron display but dont have to run an HDMI cable to it. I just used an old android phone and it works. Here are instructions on how to do it Android GX WiFi Display

Also, I have a starlink mini in our 5.0 that I use to allow the Cerbo GX to connect to the internet and use Victron VRM to access it. This works very well, even when the mini is in standby mode that still allows communications at 700kbit/s. The standby mode is $5 per month. At first I was going to permanently mount the mini either to the inside of the escape skylight above the bed or on top of our Houghton heatpump on the roof, but now I just keep it in the upper cabinets by the bed where it faces up and is powered by our always-on 120VAC outlet (Powered by a Victron Multiplus in combination with 1200W of solar and 920Ah of storage). This location works surprisingly well considering that a substantial part of the mini's view is blocked by solar panels we have on the roof (the fiberglass roof is transparant to this RF, the solar panels are not). Using this location allows me to relocate the mini to an outside location in a very short period of time if needed and the unit is not visible so there is no theft or damage risk.

When I first started out, I looked into using an old phone for a permanent hotspot in the trailer so I could have remote access to the trailer. Under my phone plan, the monthly cost was more than I wanted to pay I switched to a Verizon Jet Pack which was less expensive but still $80/month. I could put service on hold once or maybe it was twice a year. That was still expensive, so I switched to GSM modem and pay $11/month only when the system is on. The lowest payment tier is $2/month plus $0.10/1MB. If I don't use it, they don't take an autopayment.

I recently looked at the Starlink Mini, for the 3rd or 4th time. I would like to have one but was turned off by the $50/month cost because service and billing could not be interrupted. In otherwards, I would be billed whether I used it or not. I was not aware that I could put it in standby mode for $5/month. This is encouraging. Can I switch back and forth on a monthly basis? In otherwards, turn on the $50/month service only when I am using the trailer?

Currently, I keep the system on when the trailer is in storage or at unsecured service or even at the campground so I can monitor the location via geofence. I will be notified with a message to my phone if the system is disconnected or the trailer moves outside the geofence. I can also download its breadcrumbs if it is moved. The little GPS antenna that is connected to the Cerbo is hidden and the GSM modem is small and tucked away in the corner of an upper cabinet. Of course, if someone disconnected the batteries, I would be out of luck.

So, paying $5/month sounds like a deal for remote access. $50/month isn't bad for when I am using the trailer. Not sure I need internet when in remote campgrounds, but I would like it. Not sure I could hide the Mini antenna. I wonder what a trailer thief would think if they saw a Starlink antenna?

 

[BritCanuck]

I was not aware that I could put it in standby mode for $5/month. This is encouraging. Can I switch back and forth on a monthly basis? In otherwards, turn on the $50/month service only when I am using the trailer?

Not sure I could hide the Mini antenna. I wonder what a trailer thief would think if they saw a Starlink antenna?

Yes you can on the Roam subscription. It’s what I do. And if you re subscribe mid month you are charged pro-rate which is nice.

I don’t bother hiding my mini. Gives me more flexibility outside on placement. It’s useless to any thief. Lots of campers use them now quite openly.

 

[BobG-ESC]

I don’t bother hiding my mini. Gives me more flexibility outside on placement. It’s useless to any thief. Lots of campers use them now quite openly.

I was thinking that if they saw the antenna and were going to steal the trailer, they might just disconnect it and steal the trailer. If that happened, I wouldn't be able to follow the breadcrumbs. I would get notice that the system was disconnected. That is why I was thinking the antenna would need to be hidden. I would like it to operate without the Multiplus being turned on. It would need to operate on DC voltage. Can the router be operated on DC?

 

[vermilye]

The Mini MAY work on 12V, but if you have a long cable adding a voltage doubler is a good idea.

 

[BobG-ESC]

Ok, I have 24-volt battery so I can fuse and switch a line from the busbar. I don't have a 24-volt panel. I will look at the Roaming Plan.