Lithium upgrade to 2023 5.0 with twin 6V + solar panel

[CE Vogel]

IMO, for wire protection purposes on the battery-side of the controller, that breaker should be closer to the controller than the battery (or + bus bar) since the source of any current-flow in the wire is the controller, not the battery.

I was taught to always place the circuit protection device as close to the energy source as possible. In the case of the 10AWG wire between the solar charge controller and the battery bus bar, it is connected to energy at both ends; charge controller at one end, battery at the other end. Normal current flow is from the charge controller to the battery, in which case your statement is correct. However, in a fault mode (pinched wire, failed charge controller, etc.), current will flow from the battery at a rate that could easily melt the wire. By locating protection at the bus bar, the wire is protected from the battery feeding a fault. The circuit breakers between the solar panels and charge controller protect the wire from the other direction.
In any case, BritCanuck's wiring diagram is far superior to the factory wiring in any RV I've seen.

 

[BritCanuck]

Thought I'd just update this thread. Finished the upgrade today. Everything seems to be working!

Only a couple of changes I made to my last design. Didn't bother with the voltage regulator, and put my portable solar panel on its own solar MPPT controller. So both my roof and portable panels are independently controlled, and optimised. They're completely different specs so would have been dragging each other down in parallel on one MPPT.

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[John in Santa Cruz]

i'm not sure its critical to fuse solar controllers outputs, as long as the wire is heavy enough gauge to handle the max output of the solar controller, which of course it has to be. MPPT controllers are short circuit protected inherently. Like, my 360W panel into a Victron 100/30 isn't going to output more than 30A no matter what., and if its output is shorted, its just going to shut down.

 

[CE Vogel]

Thought I'd just update this thread. Finished the upgrade today. Everything seems to be working!

Only a couple of changes I made to my last design. Didn't bother with the voltage regulator, and put my portable solar panel on its own solar MPPT controller. So both my roof and portable panels are independently controlled, and optimised. They're completely different specs so would have been dragging each other down in parallel on one MPPT.

Thanks for everyone's input!

I'm glad it worked out for you! Let us know how it works after you have used it for a while.

 

[John in Santa Cruz]

heh, yeah. I left myself the option of plugging in my portable 100W solar panel when I upgraded my setup, and I don't think I've done that more than once in 5-6 years. I've stopped even bothering to pack the 100W Solar Suitcase.

 

[BritCanuck]

i'm not sure its critical to fuse solar controllers outputs, as long as the wire is heavy enough gauge to handle the max output of the solar controller, which of course it has to be. MPPT controllers are short circuit protected inherently. Like, my 360W panel into a Victron 100/30 isn't going to output more than 30A no matter what., and if its output is shorted, its just going to shut down.

Well the Victron manual explicitly states to install fuses on the battery side of the MPPT. My view is they are protecting the branch wire rather than the end device., e.g. against pinches/etc. I've still got the big T-fuse in the way as well. Can never have too many fuses!

 

[BritCanuck]

heh, yeah. I left myself the option of plugging in my portable 100W solar panel when I upgraded my setup, and I don't think I've done that more than once in 5-6 years. I've stopped even bothering to pack the 100W Solar Suitcase.

Think it will depend on where you do the majority of your camping. Here in BC most of the provincial parks are in forests and site are partially shaded. I quite often find myself with the roof panel shaded so roll out the portable to a sunny spot if it will reach.

 

[marrstian]

Hey Chris - We have a 2024 5.0 with U-shaped dinette and did a similar lithium upgrade & solar install shortly after purchase. I installed 2-250watt panels on the roof and 4-100ah LiTime batteries with BMV-712 and 100/50 MPPT controller.
I later added a 3000watt inverter, automatic transfer switch and sub-panel to run the microwave, outlets & Houghton 9.5K AC unit.
I had planned on upgrading the WFCO with the PD4655V but found that the factory WFCO in our 5.0 does support lithium batteries (w/"Auto-Detect"), so I just went with it.

I'm by no means and "expert" but did a lot of research and, like you, just wanted to "do it once".

In terms of cable sizes & fuses, I used 4/0 welding cable between the battery bank and inverter with a 250A Class T fuse between the battery and battery disconnect switch (factory switch should be OK, but I opted to replace with a 600V Blue Sea switch). I also used a 125A MRBF fuse on each of the pos. battery terminals.

Not sure if you already have a DC-DC charger or if you plan to install one? (needed if you plan to charge battery from your tow vehicle while driving) I installed a Renogy DCC1212-20 charger and set it to 10amps (didn't want to overload the wiring in our F150) & ran new 6 gauge wire from the DC-DC charger to the 7 pin junction box, taking care so as to not disable the breakaway cable function (followed another post I'd found on this forum).

It was a tight squeeze getting everything in the rear of the dinette, but it's been working great so far.
Best of luck with your install, and feel free to reach out if I can be of assistance.
Jim

Jim - I'm looking at a new 2025 5.0 and interested in doing the solar and Li battery upgrade (and hoping I can do it for much less than the Zap Pack cost). How did you order your trailer to be prepared for the upgrade? Did you order the solar pre-wire? Or order any options at all relative to power? Would appreciate any insights you can share.

 

[John in Santa Cruz]

having gone the route of doing a lithium upgrade on a pre-lithium trailer, I dunno, I think I'd order the factory kit, unless you really like DIY... The Zap Pack is using Victron stuff, which is about as good as it gets (my upgrades include a bunch of Victron, but doesn't have the integration of said zap pack's Multiplus inverter/charger).

 

[GinoandLinda]

Jim - I'm looking at a new 2025 5.0 and interested in doing the solar and Li battery upgrade (and hoping I can do it for much less than the Zap Pack cost). How did you order your trailer to be prepared for the upgrade? Did you order the solar pre-wire? Or order any options at all relative to power? Would appreciate any insights you can share.

If it were me, I would have ETI do it. Sure, you'd save a few bucks but I would rather spend my time camping.

 

[BobG-ESC]

In 2020 when I ordered my trailer, I wanted the Multiplus 3000, 4x 12v lithium 100 Ah batteries, and as much solar as possible. Escape said the batteries had to go in the front storage box (a no go for me) and they were not sure if I could get 4, The Multiplus was not an option and solar was limited. Due to the pandemic, communications were not the best. I decided to order the trailer without battery, solar, or inverter and do everything myself. I did include the EMS but think it is probably redundent to the Multiplus.

It was a steep and expensive learning curve. I bought the equipment and when the trailer was ready to be picked up I went to Sumas with one of my lithium batteries and picked up the trailer. When I got home, I started assembling the system. A year later I was at the factory due to problems with Level II or whatever the tank sensors are called. Dave fixed that system as best he could and while at it he took pictures of the system I had built. A couple years later Escape came out with a similar system that I think is called the Zap Pack?

Anyway, if I could have had what I wanted, I would have gone with the factory system. It is a much easier and probably less expensive path than learning all that is necessary to design and build a system. I am happy with what I have and would not trade it for what is available from Escape but I would probably settle for what they provide in order to avoid the learning curves on Lithium batteries, Solar Charge Controllers, Networking, Shunts, Programming (settings and wizards), Solar panels (series vs parallel), mounting solar panels, dealing with the tow vehicle charging and emergency breakaway switch, Physical layout, Cerbo GX magic, amazing Multiplus setup, and DC-DC converters (I went with 12 volt batteries in series for a 24 volt battery).

If I had not had previous experience with a cruising sailboat that incorporated many of the same systems, I probably would have failed or not attempted to do my own system. I am glad I did and am still amazed by the technology.

 

[jjdeluca]

Jim - I'm looking at a new 2025 5.0 and interested in doing the solar and Li battery upgrade (and hoping I can do it for much less than the Zap Pack cost). How did you order your trailer to be prepared for the upgrade? Did you order the solar pre-wire? Or order any options at all relative to power? Would appreciate any insights you can share.

Kevin - When we ordered our 5.0 in the Fall of 2023, we selected no electrical/power options (except for the removable power cord, which I believe is now a standard feature). However we did order the U-shaped dinette, which provided ample space for the electrical equipment. We also ordered the compressor fridge, without vents, which allowed me to open up the area above the fridge (extra cabinet space) which I used to route the solar cables down into the trailer.

Being retired, I enjoy DIY projects and felt that I could build a better, more substantial system than what ETI was offering at the time, for significantly less $.

When we placed or order, the Zap Pack options were not available, but to get 4-100Ah LiFePo4 (Hublion) batteries, a 1500 Watt (GoPower) inverter, Progressive Industries EMS, 2-200Watt rooftop solar panels with MPPT (GoPower or Victron?) & 10awg cable (ETI would not upgrade cable size), Smart shunt/battery monitor (Victron?) & DC-DC charger (Victron?) would have cost about $9500 after tax.

By comparison, my install included 4-100Ah LifePo4 (LiTime) batteries, a 3000Watt (Renogy) inverter with Progressive Dynamics Auto Transf Switch, Progressive Industries EMS, 2-250 Watt (Rich Solar) rooftop solar panels (wired in parallel) with 100/50 (Victron) MPPT & 6awg cable, Smart Shunt/Battery monitor (Victron) & DC-DC charger (Renogy) along with cables, fuses, breakers and hardware cost aprox $4500 after tax.

Not sure what it would cost to do again today, but lithium battery costs continue to drop. So, I'm sure there's still a potential for significant savings for a DIY installation. However, as others have said, for those who don't have the time or desire to take on such a project the factory-installed Zap Pack options are always available.

 

[BritCanuck]

. Not sure what it would cost to do again today, but lithium battery costs continue to drop.

I just brought the 400AH Litime battery for just over $1000 CAD.

I personally would like to add a second 200W solar panel but don’t fancy trying to install it on the roof. Think I’ll just stick with the portable for the moment.

 

[marrstian]

Appreciate the perspectives and the information. Trades either way - a decent part of me wants the challenge of the project (I'll be a retired EE a few decades away from my sophomore circuits class), but I can afford the Zap pack and I'll have other commitments that may make the decision for me. Still...I'm thinking about it. Especially since custom would allow bigger batteries and higher capacity solar arrays for less cost.

 

[BobG-ESC]

Appreciate the perspectives and the information. Trades either way - a decent part of me wants the challenge of the project (I'll be a retired EE a few decades away from my sophomore circuits class), but I can afford the Zap pack and I'll have other commitments that may make the decision for me. Still...I'm thinking about it. Especially since custom would allow bigger batteries and higher capacity solar arrays for less cost.

Since you have the electrical part, all you need to do is learn the systems. I bet you would enjoy doing it yourself and, in the process, you would sort out and cleanup what you are starting with. You can find help here or on the Facebook Groups for "Victron Energy", "Victron Powered Camper" and "RV DIY Solar Install". "Victron Energy" has very good help with the Victron equipment.

 

[Vic Harder]

Appreciate the perspectives and the information. Trades either way - a decent part of me wants the challenge of the project (I'll be a retired EE a few decades away from my sophomore circuits class), but I can afford the Zap pack and I'll have other commitments that may make the decision for me. Still...I'm thinking about it. Especially since custom would allow bigger batteries and higher capacity solar arrays for less cost.

I'd do it myself. As for learning the required background info, I personally can't own a camper/trailer/car/whathaveyou without understanding how it all works. If I don't know that in my driveway, how the heck will I figure it out in the middle of no-where?

 

[CE Vogel]

Appreciate the perspectives and the information. Trades either way - a decent part of me wants the challenge of the project (I'll be a retired EE a few decades away from my sophomore circuits class), but I can afford the Zap pack and I'll have other commitments that may make the decision for me. Still...I'm thinking about it. Especially since custom would allow bigger batteries and higher capacity solar arrays for less cost.

I took a hybrid approach. My trailer came equipped with solar panels, a lead-acid battery, inverter, and lithium compatible converter. I switched it to three lithium batteries, installed a DC-DC converter in the tow vehicle charge line, upgraded the solar charge controller to a lithium compatible MPPT unit, and added monitoring systems. Since all the basics were factory installed, I didn't need to pull any new wiring except for the monitors. Overall it was rewarding, and I know exactly how my system works.