"Bucking" 5.0TA - Sierra combo

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by cdmixer

I am brand new to camping so I am expecting Escape to put the E2 by fastway on my new GMC Seirra 1500. My truck has the basic trailer towing package as well as a trailer brake installed but I have no ball yet. Do I trust escape to put this on right since I know nothing about this type of hitch system. We also got the lift in the trailer option.

Thanks.

Escape will set up your hitch and it will have a ball...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by mizterwizard

When the trailer tips forward or backward the weight moves in the direction of the tilt. If it is nose high it will also be nose light. These trailers already run a bit light in the front compared to many stickies.

This is a valid effect, but is really only observable with a single axle. With tandem axles this effect is completely overpowered by the effect of the two suspensions (for the two axles) fighting each other: if you raise the nose the leading suspension is extended (reducing the load carried) and the trailing suspension is compressed (increasing the load carried), moving the effective axe location rearward and increasing hitch load (pin weight). Equalized suspensions should reduce this, but most don't work very effectively and the Torflex suspensions used on the 5.0TA (except on early 2014-2015 units) isn't equalized at all. Just like any other tandem Escape, if you raise the nose you increase hitch weight, and vice versa.

The weight distribution of the 5.0TA is more nose-heavy than other Escape models, as expected, but I agree that it is not as nose-heavy as most fifth-wheels. That's okay, since a fifth-wheel doesn't need to be any more nose-heavy than a conventional trailer for stability - the higher hitch weight fraction is done mostly because it is possible (since the truck can carry more load over the axle than back at the bumper), not because it is necessary.

[Chotch]

Originally Posted by PM15283

Not sure, but as set up at ETI. May be slightly nose up.

🤔 Have you done anything yet to remedy your problem? Really curious because my 50TA tows great behind my F150. When hooked up both truck and trailer near perfectly level.

[PM15283]

Not yet. Certainly a lot of info and advice. My mechanic says adjustable shocks. I noted a few days after delivery that ETI modified the (under box portion of my) BW hitch. (Above box is Andersen.) ETI did not tell me about the change (or get permission).
Wondering if Camping World (just a few mi. down the road) would have an opinion.

[Chotch]

Originally Posted by PM15283

Not yet. Certainly a lot of info and advice. My mechanic says adjustable shocks. I noted a few days after delivery that ETI modified the (under box portion of my) BW hitch. (Above box is Andersen.) ETI did not tell me about the change (or get permission).
Wondering if Camping World (just a few mi. down the road) would have an opinion.

I’m sure they would, not so sure what it would be worth, the opinion. What was the modification made?

[PM15283]

Chotch- The BW (in bed) ball release seems to have been immobilized. If I can't invert the ball to have a flat bed when needed....?! Just one more negative about the delivery process. (I have a list.)

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by PM15283

I noted a few days after delivery that ETI modified the (under box portion of my) BW hitch. (Above box is Andersen.)

Originally Posted by PM15283

The BW (in bed) ball release seems to have been immobilized. If I can't invert the ball to have a flat bed when needed....?!

I can't think of any reason to change the Turnoverball hitch operation. It seems unlikely that this was intentional, but I would certainly ask ETI what was done and why, and I would plan on restoring normal operation.

B&W's own Companion fifth-wheel hitches are designed to anchor to the Turnoverball in-bed hitch, similarly to the Andersen Ultimate. The Companion uses a fitting which replaces the ball of the Turnoverball hitch, in contrast to the Andersen which clamps onto the ball, so the Turnoverball release must remain normally functional when used with the Companion.

[PM15283]

Checked the level on a perfectly level surface this p.m. 100% dead level trailer. With 62k miles it's not a bad time for shocks anyway. $300 for manually adjustable, lots more for air adjust. Opinions? Traveling, I can't see disconnecting very often (and driving around with a stiff rear end). We'll mostly do long, touring-type trip I expect. On the other hand, crawling underneath to dial in the best setting often.......

[akmacs]

I know there are far more knowledgable folks than I am when it comes to towing and trucks but I just wouldn't think that your shocks would cause severe bucking while going down a typical maintained highway surface. Bad shocks make me think of a harsh or too soft ride when on rough roads.

I'd give a really good once over to the trailer axles and tires but maybe you already have. Is there any chance your trailer brakes are applying/releasing? Breakaway tether snagging on something maybe?

I'm assuming your trailers brakes still function normally?

I ended up with scalloped tires on a motorhome which resulted in a rougher ride when moving slowly and excessive road noise. I had looked at the tires before and had not noticed irregular tread height.

If nothing else the shocks could be a place to start. For what its worth, I still have stock motorcraft shocks on my truck with 66k miles with a pretty similar setup for a hitch as you have.

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by Ronn

Quick Question Phil, in another post you mentioned hauling a small trailer back, was that the case and if so might that have had an affect?

Hi Phil, Have you towed since without the added trailer to rule that possibility out?

[PGDriver]

Hi Phil
No sure what’s happening as I have 2015 Sierra and 5.0TA and have never had anything like that happen. The only thing I can add is one of our shop trucks had firestone air bags and when loaded, under certain conditions it tended to bounce in the back end. We played with the air bag pressure and that helped but did not eliminate it.
This is my second Sierra my previous was a 2011, it also never experienced the problem your having. Both vehicles were equipped with the OEM shocks.

[Chotch]

Originally Posted by PM15283

Checked the level on a perfectly level surface this p.m. 100% dead level trailer. With 62k miles it's not a bad time for shocks anyway. $300 for manually adjustable, lots more for air adjust. Opinions? Traveling, I can't see disconnecting very often (and driving around with a stiff rear end). We'll mostly do long, touring-type trip I expect. On the other hand, crawling underneath to dial in the best setting often.......

Trailer is level, is the truck? Do you need to add air to the bags to get it level, if so you are you exceeding your payload? 🤔 As to the shocks they may be shot and replacement would help, but why adjustable? You planning to run the Baha 500?

[PM15283]

Originally Posted by Chotch

Trailer is level, is the truck? Do you need to add air to the bags to get it level, if so you are you exceeding your payload? [emoji848] As to the shocks they may be shot and replacement would help, but why adjustable? You planning to run the Baha 500?

My 1500 rides nicely, but adding stiffer shocks for towing means it'll likely ride like a 2500. (I've already gone from "P" to "LT" tires.) Must keep the better half comfy.

[PM15283]

Truck is not level, unless airbags are dropped to about 5#. (Not sure even that would do it.) Can't safely run them that low without risking damage.
Checked how much the truck "squats" as the ta settles. Appeared to be more than the 1" that it measures.
Suppose I could lift the front end, but pretty sure having the truck level accomplishes anything. They build 'em to be nose down....

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by PM15283

Suppose I could lift the front end, but pretty sure having the truck level accomplishes anything. They build 'em to be nose down....

I assume this was supposed to be something like "not sure having the truck level accomplishes anything". I agree with that - whether the truck is level or not is not important (as long as neither front nor rear suspension is near the limit of travel). They are built to be nose-down when empty, and approximately level when fully loaded. The nose-down initial attitude is just to allow the rear to compress more than the front under load, because the load is mostly in the back.

Some 2WD pickups are especially nose-low, because the 2WD front suspension is much lower than the 4WD front suspension, and they don't change the rear suspension between 4WD and 2WD enough to match the change in the front. This is apparent in at least some previous years of Ram 2500/3500 and Ford SuperDuty pickups. This doesn't mean that nose-low is good, only that it is acceptable and not worth fixing.

Originally Posted by PM15283

Truck is not level, unless airbags are dropped to about 5#. (Not sure even that would do it.) Can't safely run them that low without risking damage.
Checked how much the truck "squats" as the ta settles. Appeared to be more than the 1" that it measures.

If the back doesn't come down much under load without the air bags - so it isn't nose-up and never bottoms out - then the air bags are not needed.

[PM15283]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I assume this was supposed to be something like "not sure having the truck level accomplishes anything". I agree with that - whether the truck is level or not is not important (as long as neither front nor rear suspension is near the limit of travel). They are built to be nose-down when empty, and approximately level when fully loaded. The nose-down initial attitude is just to allow the rear to compress more than the front under load, because the load is mostly in the back.

Some 2WD pickups are especially nose-low, because the 2WD front suspension is much lower than the 4WD front suspension, and they don't change the rear suspension between 4WD and 2WD enough to match the change in the front. This is apparent in at least some previous years of Ram 2500/3500 and Ford SuperDuty pickups. This doesn't mean that nose-low is good, only that it is acceptable and not worth fixing.


If the back doesn't come down much under load without the air bags - so it isn't nose-up and never bottoms out - then the air bags are not needed.

Sorry I missed the proofread "not."

Re: airbags. Put them on for towing a much larger Jayco. Could remove them and use the air compressor on air adjustable instead of manually adjusted shocks.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by PM15283

Truck is not level, unless airbags are dropped to about 5#. (Not sure even that would do it.) Can't safely run them that low without risking damage.
Checked how much the truck "squats" as the ta settles. Appeared to be more than the 1" that it measures.
Suppose I could lift the front end, but pretty sure having the truck level accomplishes anything. They build 'em to be nose down....

The Ride-Rite airbags I installed on my Tacoma said to use 5 PSI when not loaded, and I typically needed 30-40 PSI when heavily loaded to maintain the same truck attitude. basically, I'd measure top of tire to fender lip when the truck was empty, then load up the truck, hitch up (without a WDH) and add sufficient air to get the truck back to the same number. If I was using a WDH, I'd air-bag level it before hitching, then use the WDH to offset the additional tongue weight.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

... basically, I'd measure top of tire to fender lip when the truck was empty, then load up the truck, hitch up (without a WDH) and add sufficient air to get the truck back to the same number. If I was using a WDH, I'd air-bag level it before hitching, then use the WDH to offset the additional tongue weight.

But then you would end up with the rear of the truck even higher than when empty, right? That's not good. Why not do that, adjusting the WD properly (meaning to return the front ride height nearly to the empty condition), then adjust the air bags (reducing pressure) to bring the back of the truck down to the empty ride height, or moderately lower (since the suspension is intended to work at a lower height when loaded).

[PM15283]

Concerned the 5.0TA doesn't have enough tongue weight and seems none of the rv places nearby have the ability to do a tongue weight.
Downloaded the CAT scales app, will fill fuel and water and see what I can find out.

[John in Santa Cruz]

tongue weight on a 5th wheel is a a little different than a hitch towed trailer, you typically want around 25% on the 5th wheel hitch as its directly over the truck rear axle, where as on a ball hitch, you want 10-15% as its significantly behind the axle.

but... find a friendly cat scale, unhitch nearby and run your truck through by itself, they'll give you the front axle (A), and front+rear combined (B)

now, go hitch, and run through again, they'll give you the front axle (C), front+rear axle (D), and front+rear+trailer axle (E).

trailer total weight is E-B

hitch weight is D-B

rear axle weight without the trailer is B-A

rear axle weight with the trailer is D-C

make sure the vehicle axle weights are within the specified GAWR's