LED dome lights

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I'm sure that almost all LED lighting is now made in China. "Made in China" was more a lamentation - stuff used to be better made. When I was a kid, it was "made in Japan" as a derogatory statement about the quality of something. Now I buy Toyota because of the quality. Who knows, maybe China will get better at making stuff.

Yup we can hope for China to improv. I remember you didn't want "made in Japan "too. And we to bought a Toyota and now have a Subaru that was "made in Japan " Pat

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I'm sure that almost all LED lighting is now made in China. "Made in China" was more a lamentation - stuff used to be better made. When I was a kid, it was "made in Japan" as a derogatory statement about the quality of something. Now I buy Toyota because of the quality. Who knows, maybe China will get better at making stuff.

I'm old enough that I recall the same progression.

In fact Chinese companies can make great stuff, and they do when they are paid for it. For instance, Apple enthusiasts seem to be adamant that their devices are the most wonderful things with screens ever made, and they are all made in China. If you are only willing to pay for junk, you can get it... and it will necessarily come from a country where costs are much lower than here. So there's no really cheap stuff from here, but lots of places can produce good stuff. I have had two Toyotas that have both been very good, and the second one was built in the U.S. The country of origin just doesn't mean much by itself.

Unfortunately that makes finding good products more difficult.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

We haven’t had any problems yet with any of our led dome lights, but we probably aren’t using them when higher voltages are present since we rarely have shore power and probably don’t use lighting when solar is charging.

I was thinking this last part as well, that we pretty much never turn on lights when charging at high voltage via solar. Because it’s daytime. But I’m still concerned about our Maxxfan and fridge. My electrical background is just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, but if someone does a Boost-buck-converter for Dummies installation guide for these two specific appliances, I would love to try my hand and follow along!

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

I was thinking this last part as well, that we pretty much never turn on lights when charging at high voltage via solar. Because it’s daytime. But I’m still concerned about our Maxxfan and fridge. My electrical background is just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, but if someone does a Boost-buck-converter for Dummies installation guide for these two specific appliances, I would love to try my hand and follow along!

Installing a voltage stabilizer (boost buck) on the Maxxfan circuit can be done by determining which fuse in the converter panel is supplying power to it and putting the stabilizer in series. Be aware that the Maxxfan can have a startup current of up to 9 amps and a current of 4.7 amps on high.

The fridge is on a 30 amp fuse - if you run the fridge on DC, it will need most of that 30 amps. However, if you don't intend to run the fridge on DC, the control panel is all that requires DC power and can be supplied by a small voltage stabilizer. Again, the stabilizer can be installed in series from the converter panel fuse for the fridge. Just be careful; if the fridge switches to DC with a small stabilizer in the DC power circuit, it won't be the 30 amp fuse that will pop - it would be the stabilizer!

Oh, and don't forget about that very expensive 12v power awning you have.

[tdf-texas]

This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N0NhKmGznk

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

I was thinking this last part as well, that we pretty much never turn on lights when charging at high voltage via solar. Because it’s daytime. But I’m still concerned about our Maxxfan and fridge. My electrical background is just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, but if someone does a Boost-buck-converter for Dummies installation guide for these two specific appliances, I would love to try my hand and follow along!

If they did your 2017 "19's" wiring the same as mine the top fuse marked lights powers the wetbath fan and light.
The next one down marked lights powers all inside and outside lights except the wetbath and kitchen light. It also does the awning and Maxxfan and thermostat.
The next one marked 12 volt has 2 wires attached in mine. One goes to the USB/12v outlet by the bed and also the kitchen fan and light. The other goes to 2 USB/12 outlets by the dinette. I separated them into 2 fuse locations.
Next on mine is Heater/DSI for the heater.


The fridge is at the very bottom, I have not read anyone saying they have had a failure on it related to over voltage so it may have voltage regulation built onto the board. I have the standard 5 cf fridge and it is fused at 20 amps and is fused at 5 amps to the fridge control board
It would need at least a 20 amp DC-DC boost/buck converter to power it if you did at at the fuse. Or you can lift the 12v power lead to the circuit box at the back of the fridge and use a 5 amp DC-DC boost buck to power it.

The second fuse marked lights would be where you get the most bang for your buck/boost unit. With all lights on and the maxxfan running at maximum when you run the awning in and out it uses over 8 amps to power it. If you can find a 15 amp buck boost device all you would need to do its lift the wire at the fuse and connect the buck/boost in its place. Otherwise you would need to either move the awning to its own fuse which is a lot of work to do and is what I did. Or buy 12v regulators and redo all the lights themselves. Which also is a bit of work. Wait a little and I'm sure Tom from Texas will have a how to do for the lights. I did 2 of mine, the Kitchen and wetbath at the light. Toms circuit is similar to what I did but he plans on using a different regulator device.

Its not really an quick job to do either way . The way I did if had me running wiring behind the wetbath and pulling an upper cabinet to access wiring. And the other means every light needs to have a regulator wired in.


I originally tested the 2 light circuits with 8 amp fuses and they held with just lights on. I did not know all sorts of other accessories were also being powered by them. So the day came when I had some lights on, the maxxfan running and brought the awning in. The fuse blew. So I redid the DC wiring a bit.
This post has the amps drawn
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f9...tml#post276228


I never did figure a way to separate the Maxxfan from the lights . Since it also appears to need lower voltage I decided to regulate it with the lights and the thermostat.

[Eggscape]

My 2018 fridge looks like this with a small wire to the circuit board and the thicker wire to an external relay to provide the high current side. So to protect the fridge will not be that hard.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by wetzk

I have the standard 5 cf fridge and it is fused at 20 amps and is fused at 5 amps to the fridge control board.

I forgot about the separate fuse for the fridge control board. That would be the place to install a small voltage stabilizer if it needs one and leave the 20/30 amp circuit as it is.

edit: Ed (Eggscape) types faster than I do! That wire is definitely the place to do it.

[tdf-texas]

Keep in mind - every device that you add voltage regulation decreases it's efficiency. None of the voltage stabilizers are 100% efficient - they all create a little heat and add a loss to the circuit. If you boondock a lot, that could make a difference.

[Micheal K]

I decided to remove one of my dome light LED modules and take a look at it...

The circuit includes a current limit (the two transistors at the bottom). I found it to limit to about 480 mA and to kick in at around 11.8 Vdc. The limit did vary a bit, probably due to temperature. The pcb gets very hot, particularly since I've removed it from the heat sink in the fixture.

IMO, given the current limit, adding an additional 12Vdc regulator probably won't help prevent failure.

Edit - tdf Texas made a good point that an external regulator still would still help if the failure mode is the large transistor in the current limit. I calculated about .85 W dissipated @ 12Vdc and about 2W dissipated @ 14 Vdc on that part. If the vendor says the fixture is not designed for greater than 12 Vdc, this is likely where the problem is and tdf Texas is correct.

[cpaharley2008]

I have decided to switch out all my under cabinet led lights to captain lights with replaceable bulbs. I'm trying to minimize my exposure to this issue and if needed I can always replace the captain lights with better pancake lights.

[CarinaPDX]

It seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog here. At least one of the sources of the problem is a high charge voltage, which is required for getting AGM batteries to a full SOC for longevity. The equalization voltage used occasionally for flooded batteries causes a similar problem. So why not go with gel batteries and avoid the problem? I have been using Sonnennschein Prevailer gel batteries for more than two decades while living and cruising aboard my sailboat full time; my various regulators are set to an absorption voltage of 14.1V. I have not encountered any problems with this voltage and have had good battery life. I do use well-regulated LEDs, for consistent output as well as longevity and for dimming with interior lighting. AGM, and particularly Lifeline, are excellent batteries but IMHO Sonnenschein gels are better. I need to replace them and am considering the less expensive Deka gels but have no knowledge of how they compare.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

I decided to remove one of my dome light LED modules and take a look at it...

The circuit includes a current limit (the two transistors at the bottom). I found it to limit to about 480 mA and to kick in at around 11.8 Vdc. The limit did vary a bit, probably due to temperature. The pcb gets very hot, particularly since I've removed it from the heat sink in the fixture.

IMO, given the current limit, adding an additional 12Vdc regulator probably won't help prevent failure.

Edit - tdf Texas made a good point that an external regulator still would still help if the failure mode is the large transistor in the current limit. I calculated about .85 W dissipated @ 12Vdc and about 2W dissipated @ 14 Vdc on that part. If the vendor says the fixture is not designed for greater than 12 Vdc, this is likely where the problem is and tdf Texas is correct.

I started out writing a detailed circuit description with formulas, etc. explaining the why and then common sense kicked in and I deleted it.

Here is the revised version.

The 1 ohm resister (R2) and the transistor in series with it (Q1) control the current passing through the LED array. The second transistor (Q2) is the over-current sensing switch to throttle Q1 when the current limit is reached based on R2s value. This circuit acts like a variable resistor to control the LED current.

The more the power source voltage rises above the LED string voltage, the higher the resistance increases to limit the current and the more heat is produced. Too much heat "lets the smoke out" (http://www2.ece.rochester.edu/course...ials/smoke.pdf).

So we either get rid of the excess heat with heat sinks or reduce the power source voltage. Since the transistors are surface mount, adding more heat sink is difficult.

So I added a voltage regulator to reduce the power source voltage.

Really, I know it doesn't seem like it but this is the simplified version!

edit: by the time I rewrote this - the original message changed! Sorry and never mind.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Keep in mind - every device that you add voltage regulation decreases it's efficiency. None of the voltage stabilizers are 100% efficient - they all create a little heat and add a loss to the circuit. If you boondock a lot, that could make a difference.

Aren’t we going down a rabbit hole here? Millions of RV’s have similar converters and solar systems. Many likely have batteries that are not getting ideal charging profiles, but are still providing plenty of power. A circuits class might be fun for some, but is likely a nightmare for many non-engineers that may come across this problem and just want a quick solution. The standard Go Power solar controller doesn’t go higher than 14.4V unless it is set to equalize which is 14.9V. The standard WFCO converter also has a maximum output voltage of 14.4V. Wouldn’t the easiest thing to do be to just replace the cheap lights completely with something with a replaceable bulb and buy high quality LEDs? The impression I get is that many of us that bought trailers with incandescent bulbs and swapped with our own LEDs seem to have no issues. Please inform me if I’m missing something.

For example:
https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Lighting...30-76-123.html
https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...tributes/10818

This bulb actually states it operates from 9-14.5V.

[Greg A]

I agree, Dave. These should have been fixtures that accepted a universal T10 type push base. If I encounter this issue, I’ll just replace fixture with one that bulbs can be purchased and swapped easily.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Aren’t we going down a rabbit hole here? Millions of RV’s have similar converters and solar systems. Many likely have batteries that are not getting ideal charging profiles, but are still providing plenty of power. A circuits class might be fun for some, but is likely a nightmare for many non-engineers that may come across this problem and just want a quick solution. The standard Go Power solar controller doesn’t go higher than 14.4V unless it is set to equalize which is 14.9V. The standard WFCO converter also has a maximum output voltage of 14.4V. Wouldn’t the easiest thing to do be to just replace the cheap lights completely with something with a replaceable bulb and buy high quality LEDs? The impression I get is that many of us that bought trailers with incandescent bulbs and swapped with our own LEDs seem to have no issues. Please inform me if I’m missing something.

For example:
https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Lighting...30-76-123.html
https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...tributes/10818

This bulb actually states it operates from 9-14.5V.

You are absolutely correct.

I intend to modify my lights with voltage regulators because I have the equipment and knowledge to be able to do so. If I wasn't able to do this, I would just replace the lights with better ones and be done with it. Anyway the LED lights are fixable.

Now to the charger. That's a dilema. Setting my solar charger to 14.4v for absorption would make the 12v devices happy but I lose battery capacity. And what about equalization voltages? Changing out the batteries to gel might be a solution but my batteries are only two years old and not due for replacement.

Now we're back to what can handle the higher voltages and what can't. And for those devices that can't, what modifications do I need to do so they can.

Until I can get a fix in place, I'll set my absorption voltage to 14.4 and equalization to manual to be done only with the battery switch off.

All of this because of solar and boondocking.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

You are absolutely correct.

I intend to modify my lights with voltage regulators because I have the equipment and knowledge to be able to do so. If I wasn't able to do this, I would just replace the lights with better ones and be done with it. Anyway the LED lights are fixable.

Now to the charger. That's a dilema. Setting my solar charger to 14.4v for absorption would make the 12v devices happy but I lose battery capacity. And what about equalization voltages? Changing out the batteries to gel might be a solution but my batteries are only two years old and not due for replacement.

Now we're back to what can handle the higher voltages and what can't. And for those devices that can't, what modifications do I need to do so they can.

Until I can get a fix in place, I'll set my absorption voltage to 14.4 and equalization to manual to be done only with the battery switch off.

All of this because of solar and boondocking.

Thank you. Now I understand this issue in a better context.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Aren’t we going down a rabbit hole here? Millions of RV’s have similar converters and solar systems. Many likely have batteries that are not getting ideal charging profiles, but are still providing plenty of power. A circuits class might be fun for some, but is likely a nightmare for many non-engineers that may come across this problem and just want a quick solution. The standard Go Power solar controller doesn’t go higher than 14.4V unless it is set to equalize which is 14.9V. The standard WFCO converter also has a maximum output voltage of 14.4V. Wouldn’t the easiest thing to do be to just replace the cheap lights completely with something with a replaceable bulb and buy high quality LEDs? The impression I get is that many of us that bought trailers with incandescent bulbs and swapped with our own LEDs seem to have no issues. Please inform me if I’m missing something.

For example:
https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Lighting...30-76-123.html
https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...tributes/10818

This bulb actually states it operates from 9-14.5V.

Dave we got the led's with our trailer build in 2013 . I believe the lights we have you could change the led's if need be . Through the years we have experienced a few of the lights , in just some of the rows dimming a little ,on and off . I just scratched a little , didn't have sand paper at the time the silver connection in the lights and that worked . The rows that were dimming , stopped and came on full light again . I figured ,moisture or a loose connection was causing this ? I think a few times I used a pencil eraser too. Are we just talking about the changed newer led lights ? Pat

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Dave we got the led's with our trailer build in 2013 . I believe the lights we have you could change the led's if need be . Through the years we have experienced a few of the lights , in just some of the rows dimming a little ,on and off . I just scratched a little , didn't have sand paper at the time the silver connection in the lights and that worked . The rows that were dimming , stopped and came on full light again . I figured ,moisture or a loose connection was causing this ? I think a few times I used a pencil eraser too. Are we just talking about the changed newer led lights ? Pat

Pat: We are talking about just the newer LED lights that have the diodes hardwired in. You should be fine and can ultimately replace any bulbs if needed. The good news is that it sounds like Escape went back to lights where a bulb can be swapped. I believe this issue is only affecting trailers 2017-2018.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Pat: We are talking about just the newer LED lights that have the diodes hardwired in. You should be fine and can ultimately replace any bulbs if needed. The good news is that it sounds like Escape went back to lights where a bulb can be swapped. I believe this issue is only affecting trailers 2017-2018.

I wonder if this can be verified by any new owners with 2019 trailers?