LED dome lights

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Perhaps we can now address the MaxxFan issue so that the deluxe model will come back. Not sure if their issue is the over voltage one like the lights or change in ownership via the Lippert/Dometic merger and quality control.

It's here


http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f9...tml#post237703

[CarinaPDX]

Any system using a 3-step regulator is going to have voltages that require properly-regulated LEDs, or suffer LED reliability problems. We certainly agree that is something that needs attention, either by the choice of the LED product or by installing regulating mods.

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Interstate recommends the absorption voltage for gel as 14.46 volts so that is still too high for the LED lighting and borderline for the Maxxfan.

First off, I wouldn't buy Interstate gels. Sonnenschein were the first to manufacture durable gel batteries, and are the standard. My understanding is that East Penn acquired their technology. These two call for 14.1V and 14.2V absorption voltage, which shouldn't be an issue for the fan or fridge. After much research I wouldn't buy AGMs as well; their intolerance for PSOC (partial state of charge) is what is driving the need to reach 100% SOC, which in turn is encouraging very high absorption voltages, which leads to the overvoltage issues. Put in a quality gel battery and all of the problems go away. I appreciate that once the investment in AGMs is made, someone with the skills and interest would find that making the modifications to the DC system would be less expensive. I merely point out that an initial investment in quality gels (e.g. Sonnenschein) or flooded (e.g. Rolls) avoids the necessity of dealing with higher voltages. FWIW I have been living and cruising aboard my boat for 25+ years, and the last 23 years with Sonnenschein gel batteries. I installed some of the first 3-step regulators for alternator and solar more than 30 years ago so this is not just a theoretical excercise - been down this road before. What is new is the AGM technology, which does not compare favorably with gel IMHO.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

Also, a solution that involves having to shut off the DC completely every time solar goes into absorption stage is a non-starter solution.

I think you are confusing "absorption" with "equalizing". A typical flooded lead acid (FLA) battery needs a low enough absorption voltage that it is not a problem for most 12VDC systems using 3-step regulation, with the exception of these cheap LEDs. Equalization is something that can be done occasionally, which raises the voltage even higher in order to remove sulfation on the plates and thus extend the life of the battery. It should always be initiated manually, and with the batteries disconnected from any loads one cares about not frying.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Perhaps we can now address the MaxxFan issue so that the deluxe model will come back. Not sure if their issue is the over voltage one like the lights or change in ownership via the Lippert/Dometic merger and quality control.

They still use the Deluxe. They just omitted the version with electric opening and remote. Other than those omissions the 5100K (White) and 6200K (smoke) have all the same features.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I think you are confusing "absorption" with "equalizing". A typical flooded lead acid (FLA) battery needs a low enough absorption voltage that it is not a problem for most 12VDC systems using 3-step regulation, with the exception of these cheap LEDs. Equalization is something that can be done occasionally, which raises the voltage even higher in order to remove sulfation on the plates and thus extend the life of the battery. It should always be initiated manually, and with the batteries disconnected from any loads one cares about not frying.

I am not confusing Absorption with Equalization. Interstate specifies 15.3V for Absorption phase in their 6V batteries (2 in series), if conducted at 70*F. At lower temps the voltage is even higher.

I think you’re confusing Absorption with Float.



Edit to add: The above table is for the slightly older GC2-XHD batteries. The newer GC2-ECL batteries specify Absorption of 14.8V (2 in series) at 70*F, but even that will still exceed 15V at low temperatures.

[CarinaPDX]

Yes, quality costs extra. I will probably give the East Penn Deka gel batteries a try because of the lower price, and I don't expect to be doing any more ocean crossings - but I'm sticking with gels. In the AGM world the Lifeline batteries are widely considered to be the best of the lot, at a premium price. They call for a 14.3V absorption charge, which shouldn't be a problem for anything but the LEDs.

I confess I don't "get" the choice of the Interstate AGMs with their high absorption voltage. Perhaps it is a benefit in that the much higher forcing voltage should result in faster charging - assuming such a high current source is available. In my experience solar doesn't provide that sort of power, and when the absorption voltage is reached the battery is pretty close to 100%. But I think boats tend to have larger battery banks relative to their solar panel outputs than RVs, and every install is different, so definitely a case of YMMV. Of course there is no requirement to use the maximum absorption voltage - it just means faster charging - although at 15.3V-15.7V it is probably having an anti-sulfation effect. Still, there are other AGM options that don't use or need that high of a voltage.

Living and cruising full-time I expect to get about 8 years out of my batteries, based on my experiences with Sonnenschein gels and Rolls FLAs. Reading some of the RV threads it seems many get half of that with much less usage. On a cost per year I don't think I am paying any more than for mediocre batteries.

[padlin]

Getting a bit side tracked here, but for those of us unversed in AGM vs Gel batteries

AGM
– Preferable when a burst of amps is required.
– Can last for years.
– Can be easily recharged, in some cases up to 5 times faster.
– Can be produced at a lower cost than gel batteries.
– Have a low internal resistance.
– Perform well in temperatures below 32 degrees.

GEL
– Lower power capacity.
– Does well in warmer environments.
– Does well with slow discharge rates.
– If recharged incorrectly the battery will failure before the end of its life cycle.
– Not suitable to be used as starter batteries because of an increased acid resistance.
– Do not perform well in below freezing temperatures.

From https://northeastbattery.com/agm-vs-gel-technology/

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I confess I don't "get" the choice of the Interstate AGMs with their high absorption voltage.

All of the stock ETI battery options, including the Interstate dual 6V’s are flooded lead acid batteries, not AGM.

Perhaps these are the default for the same reasons they’re used in golf carts, and are thus often referred to as “golf cart batteries”, eg relatively high capacity and long service life if properly cared for (including being charged at manufacturer specified voltages), all at a good price point. I suspect that many RV owners who experience shortened lifespans do so because they do not follow charging guidelines. Nor are they even able to, unfortunately, with the stock charging gear, but that’s a different matter.

[CarinaPDX]

@Padlin: That comparison is oddly weighted against gels - tempting to suggest a certain bias. Their brands do represent more AGMs than gels, which is representative of the industry.

East Penn (Deka and other brands) is a high quality manufacturer of flooded, AGM and gel batteries. They consider the gel batteries to be their premium deep-cycle product line. For travel trailers like the Escape engine starting is not an issue, but my experience is that an 85Ah gel is more than adequate for starting a diesel engine at below 50% SOC. "Lower power capacity" is barely true; comparing like-for-like group 31 within the Deka line, flooded=100Ah, gel=97.6Ah, and AGM=105h (20 hour rate). "Recharging incorrectly" will damage any battery, but the AGMs are the ones that are sensitive to PSOC. As for the AGM's putative advantages, gels are even more long-lived, also have low internal resistance and charge much faster than flooded. Here is Deka's comment on comparing the two:

A Gel battery is better suited for super-deep discharge applications, which means it can withstand deeper discharges without damaging the battery’s performance. However, due to the physical properties of the gelled electrolyte, Gel battery power declines faster than an AGM battery as the temperature drops below 32ºF (0ºC). AGM batteries excel for high current, high power applications and in extremely cold environments. AGM batteries deliver a better dual purpose solution for a combination of starting and accessory power.

For a travel trailer I think the gel wins unless the battery is exposed to outside temperatures and you plan on boondocking in sub-freezing temperatures. Not me, man...

The basic flooded battery, with constant voltage charging from the tow vehicle or from a battery charger, is the least expensive, simplest, and most robust solution. Any RV manufacturer would benefit financially by keeping it simple. Escape does offer the golf cart battery upgrade, which is a minimal change for increased performance. Higher performance systems add cost and complexity, and will inevitably have more warranty costs - if for no other reason than they will not be used correctly. I wonder how many of the LED problems stem from upgraded batteries and charging systems? If I were Escape and I knew customers were charging to over 15V with the 12VDC distribution connected I would pull the warranty; it wasn't designed for that.

BTW the 15+V AGM "absorption" voltages are more accurately labelled "equalization" voltages. It appears that the AGM PSOC problem is the result of sensitivity to sulfation (growth of sulfate tendrils between opposite plates). By equalizing at every full charge the sulfation is kept to a minimum for longevity. If the distribution is hardened against the higher voltage then it is a win, provided it is kept to specs: charging at that rate for a prolonged time will destroy the batteries.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

BTW the 15+V AGM "absorption" voltages are more accurately labelled "equalization" voltages... charging at that rate for a prolonged time will destroy the batteries.

You are in contradiction with Interstate’s published information about their batteries. Also, I’m not sure why you keep coming back to AGM’s. Escape uses flooded lead acid batteries.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Per ETI, the lights in my 2014 vintage 21 is a Kaper II model # L09-0111-NW, and the batthroom lite is L09-0110... like these...

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4e2c2...fd6.pdf#page=6

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Per ETI, the lights in my 2014 vintage 21 is a Kaper II model # L09-0111-NW, and the batthroom lite is L09-0110... like these...

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4e2c2...fd6.pdf#page=6

Thanks!

With your info, I was able to find them as Diamond Group.

https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Group...7916142&sr=1-8

https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Group...916063&sr=1-39

Somewhat expensive compared to other vendors.

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I wonder how many of the LED problems stem from upgraded batteries and charging systems? If I were Escape and I knew customers were charging to over 15V with the 12VDC distribution connected I would pull the warranty; it wasn't designed for that.

B

In our case zero, the trailer has a group 29 Battery from escape, the stock power system and no photovoltatics.

No boondocking ever , every time we go out we are hooked up and there is 30 amp service at home too.
Two lights failed from the flashing problem under warranty and three more have failed since and have been replaced out of warranty. Which is why there was an interested in fixing the problem.

The manufacture of the lights messed up on the driver circuit by designing one for 12v instead of one that handles the varying voltages of a 12v system. And used iffy LED chips.

I was able to repair lights that failed by replacing the LED chips.
And made sure the ones in the trailer will not be powered by more than 12v anymore.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

...
BTW the 15+V AGM "absorption" voltages are more accurately labelled "equalization" voltages.
...

My first experience with AGM batteries was a Sears rebranded Odyssey group 21 for use with my boat trolling motor.

Per the Odyssey manual - optimum charge voltage is 14.7 vdc. The range of acceptable charge voltage is 14.2 to 14.9. And to never go over 15. (Never equalize these batteries.)

I have been charging my trolling battery at 14.4 to 14.5 and it is now 7 years old going on 8. I was so pleased with it that I purchased a pair of Sears group-31 batteries for my Escape.

Since I am less than half-way through the great trailer battery experiment, I can't reach a definitive conclusion yet. But I am very happy not having to water batteries, not having to remove them for the winter, not having to equalize, etc.

The downside? Sears no longer sells these batteries, which I purchased at a cut-rate sale, using Sears bonus points for giving them permission to flood my inbox. So now the price has essentially doubled should I want to replace them with the same battery. Which I do not! I'm holding out for Lithium(s) when they reach prime time.
--
Alan
Edit: Back in the day when I lived full time on a sail boat, I managed to kill an 8D Gel cell battery in 2 years - probably due to overcharging by a standard alternator.

[richardr]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Per ETI, the lights in my 2014 vintage 21 is a Kaper II model # L09-0111-NW, and the batthroom lite is L09-0110... like these...

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4e2c2...fd6.pdf#page=6

I've had one light go flashing, above the dinette seat. I replaced it with this light from Amazon. I expect it is no better than the one from ETI.

I'm interested in lights manufactured for voltages up to 15 volts. I see the above lights have only been tested at 12 volts. The K lights, which follow in the PDF, have been tested to 12.8 volts. Are there lights on the market that have been tested at 15 volts?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by richardr

I've had one light go flashing, above the dinette seat. I replaced it with this light from Amazon. I expect it is no better than the one from ETI.

I'm interested in lights manufactured for voltages up to 15 volts. I see the above lights have only been tested at 12 volts. The K lights, which follow in the PDF, have been tested to 12.8 volts. Are there lights on the market that have been tested at 15 volts?

Might I refer you back to post 114. Buy a light with a replaceable bulb and then find an LED labeled as multi-voltage on superbrightleds.com that specs say will work from 9-14.5V. I’m going out on a limb here, but I contend that if you aren’t buying an LED bulb for close to or more than these entire light assemblies are going for you don’t have a high quality bulb. Flicker/flashing issues will then be in your past.

[John in Santa Cruz]

any lamps designed for automobile usage /should/ be good to 16V, but I just looked at my box of miscellaenous auto LEDs, some say 10-14.8V, others say 10-30VDC or 12VAC... one batch says 10-14.5V

I'm beginning to like the idea of adding a DC-DC supply with a regulated 12V output in line with each of the two lamp outputs of the fuse panel. although they have a 15A fuse, I doubt all those lights turned on at the same time would be more than a few amps total as each fixture is like 0.3 amp (for the doubles) or 0.15 amp (for the singles)

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

any lamps designed for automobile usage /should/ be good to 16V, but I just looked at my box of miscellaenous auto LEDs, some say 10-14.8V, others say 10-30VDC or 12VAC... one batch says 10-14.5V

I'm beginning to like the idea of adding a DC-DC supply with a regulated 12V output in line with each of the two lamp outputs of the fuse panel. although they have a 15A fuse, I doubt all those lights turned on at the same time would be more than a few amps total as each fixture is like 0.3 amp (for the doubles) or 0.15 amp (for the singles)

If yours is like mine you have more than lights on the circuits marked lights. And lights on other circuits.

[padlin]

Originally Posted by richardr

I've had one light go flashing, above the dinette seat. I replaced it with this light from Amazon. I expect it is no better than the one from ETI.

I'm interested in lights manufactured for voltages up to 15 volts. I see the above lights have only been tested at 12 volts. The K lights, which follow in the PDF, have been tested to 12.8 volts. Are there lights on the market that have been tested at 15 volts?

Rick, these look like the ones that came on my 2014. I've had no problems other then one or 2 flickering a smidgen. Remove the bd, clean the contacts and reinstall to correct. I charge on occasion up to 15.6 with no ill effect to date.

[Rossue]

Exactly same here.

Also, our dual 6V are almost 4 years old and have had to add water twice. We have stock GoPower Solar. Am scratching my head wondering why I would get a battery monitor or tweak the charging.