Electrical adapters

[ReagentGrade]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

On the note of the potential for the hot and neutral to be reversed at a campground, I sure would not be worrying about it, especially with an EMS. Like Carl I have never heard first hand of anyone every seeing it.

Jim,

I encountered a reversed hot and neutral last year at a US National Forest campground. I checked with two different test devices - both agreed.

I used my 50-30 amp dog bone and checked the 30 amp outlet on the dog bone - no reverse.

The campground host insisted it must be my test equipment.

My trailer doesn't have an EMS so I check before I plug in.

Rich

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by ReagentGrade

Jim,

I encountered a reversed hot and neutral last year at a US National Forest campground. I checked with two different test devices - both agreed.

I used my 50-30 amp dog bone and checked the 30 amp outlet on the dog bone - no reverse.

The campground host insisted it must be my test equipment.

My trailer doesn't have an EMS so I check before I plug in.

Rich

Well, I now have my first confirmed reversed plug sighting, thanks Rich.

How many campers check the outlets at their site? I would venture a WAG that it is well less than 5%. I assume due to the safety risk of this line reversal, that these folks just got lucky?

[JPSpins]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I find with all the folks I deal with, that when it comes to electricity, most everyone is too scared to go near it, even though a good basic understanding can lead to safe practices. Same with plumbing, they just don't want to have to deal with all the crap associated with it. As renovation carpenters we often have WAY more money into our tools, our knowledge is way more broad, yet a customer always sees us as doing a job they could easily do if they applied themselves, yet that of an electrician or plumber way out of their realm, and they are willing to pay the plumber and electrician near $100/hour and us barely over half that.

On the note of the potential for the hot and neutral to be reversed at a campground, I sure would not be worrying about it, especially with an EMS. Like Carl I have never heard first hand of anyone every seeing it.

"Same with plumbing, they just don't want to have to deal with all the crap associated with it"...funny!

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I find with all the folks I deal with, that when it comes to electricity, most everyone is too scared to go near it, even though a good basic understanding can lead to safe practices. Same with plumbing, they just don't want to have to deal with all the crap associated with it. As renovation carpenters we often have WAY more money into our tools, our knowledge is way more broad, yet a customer always sees us as doing a job they could easily do if they applied themselves, yet that of an electrician or plumber way out of their realm, and they are willing to pay the plumber and electrician near $100/hour and us barely over half that.

On the note of the potential for the hot and neutral to be reversed at a campground, I sure would not be worrying about it, especially with an EMS. Like Carl I have never heard first hand of anyone every seeing it.

Jim , I have to agree . What I never understood is how a "Tinner"
was higher up on the ladder than a good finish carpenter .
The painters have the same problem , everyone thinks they can paint , stain or hang wall paper but after you work with a REAL
Painter you soon realize there is a big difference.
I did electrical work on residential and kitchen remodels plus historic preservation homes for many years and I always admired the finish carpenter who could take a crooked , out of square ,
sagging , home owner screwed up home and make it look like a mansion.
We eventually stopped doing residential work . The customers never knew what they wanted but definitely knew what they didn't , and it was your job to read their mind. The customer also wanted you to do things that were physically impossible or a major code violation and they got mad when you tried to explain why it was not possible . They were never happy with the bill even if you did the job for nothing and it would take months and months to collect any money .They wanted a Cadillac job for the price of a Yugo and expected you to give them extras at no cost . The profit on residential and remodel work just wasn't there but the overhead of trying to get paid and going to court sure was. We guit trying !!

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The painters have the same problem , everyone thinks they can paint , stain or hang wall paper but after you work with a REAL
Painter you soon realize there is a big difference.

The profit on residential and remodel work just wasn't there but the overhead of trying to get paid and going to court sure was. We guit trying !!

I hear you for sure on the painter thing, and even more than a carpenter, homeowners feel they can paint, so either want the painting quote to be cheap, or they will do it themselves. It really makes me cringe to take the time to bother to do a great job for someone, who just slathers paint on and think it looks good. Simple things like sanding between coats, a homeowner usually has no idea they should do this.

I have had very little problem with getting paid, other than a couple bad customers in over 20 years now. What I like most about residential compared to commercial or industrial work, is the pride that the customer gets from the job. On commercial you hear nothing but what is not done to their expectations. I worked for 15 years as a Journeyman Power Systems Electrician (high voltage for those maybe wondering), and though I worked for a great company, did meticulously nice work in an efficient manner, I did gets lots of kudos for my performance, but never for the level of work accomplished.

[Greggo]

Can't have too many adapters. I have a bag full, 15 to 30, 30 to 15, 15 to 50, etc, etc, etc.

Things got even more complicated when I picked our our 21. Now they have 30 amp twist connectors! Male/female adapter, twist 30 to 15, blah, blah! Even had to figure out how to connect my 15 amp generator without pulling out the whole cord.

The cop in me says anything not nailed down can sprout legs and walk away so I have a backup plan for my new detachable power cord. Anybody that says it can't happen has never camped at a California state beach on a 3 day weekend! Kowabunga, dude!

G

[cpaharley2008]

I have had at least 2 improperly wired pedestals before acquiring a portable EMS and later installed a permanent one in my first Escape. Since using the EMS I have had to move at least once due to wiring issues and experienced several "brown outs" caused by low voltage from campground high air conditioning use situations. Better safe than sorry.

[Greg A]

My Buddy has encountered reverse polarity at two campgrounds in N Central FL. So, while not rampant, it is out there.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I find with all the folks I deal with, that when it comes to electricity, most everyone is too scared to go near it, even though a good basic understanding can lead to safe practices. Same with plumbing, they just don't want to have to deal with all the crap associated with it.

I think that we see different sides of the same coin. You see people that have made the decision to hire a pro. They're probably not as likely to DIY their reno. For many years I saw the other side of the coin. People who, with no training, "blew out walls" and did massive amounts of wiring and plumbing themselves. Some did well but most were code violations in one form or another. Ever been in an 18" high crawlspace, feel something dragging down your back, only to discover later that when they put in the gas range they just shoved the old electric range cable down the hole, leaving it still hooked up at the panel.

Plus, don't know about Calgary, but in Vancouver young couples buying a "fixer upper", gutting it, and doing massive amounts of framing, electrical and plumbing is a blood sport and a way to make a lot of tax free money.

In campgrounds, if it's an old one I might stick my tester in but that's about it. Since we don't use an a/c I don't worry about the power supply too much.

Ron

[garysd]

Originally Posted by Greggo

Things got even more complicated when I picked our our 21. Now they have 30 amp twist connectors!

Greggo, so ETI is putting twist connectors on the power cord now? And from your comment it seems that some (maybe most?) campground pedestals don't a twist connector, just the the straight prongs?

Gary

[steve dunham]

The reason you often see low voltage in a campgrounds is the feeder supplying the electrical pedestals can be derated legally under the rules in Art #551 of the NEC.
If you have 10 pedestals rated at 50 amps each you do not take
50 amps X 10 pedestal = 500 amps to size the feeders.
You are allowed to derate the feeders by a set percentage
Since most trailers are not drawing their full rated load and many sites may be vacant it makes no sense to size the feeders at 100% from a practical and cost perspective. Most campground owners only want to do no more than the code requires.
When the campgrounds are full and everyone is running their A/C
then you end up with a low voltage condition , but if the campgrounds is only half full and it is cool the problem does not occur.
The simple , inexpensive fix for low voltage issues is to have the utility change transformer taps and run the system at a slightly higher voltage . This will help with low voltage at times with high demand but will cause a high voltage condition when the demand is low.
For example a 28 unit campgrounds by code is only required to have roughly a 400 amp electrical service to feed all 28 sites
Now days with many people camping in big motorhomes with two A/C units the campgrounds electrical systems end up overloaded.
The NEC is aware of the problems and has considered several remedies but they come with a cost and the RV Park owners have resisted the change
The same problems happen when people in older neighborhoods add central air to their homes , the utility lines and equipment can't handle the increased load .

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by garysd

Greggo, so ETI is putting twist connectors on the power cord now? And from your comment it seems that some (maybe most?) campground pedestals don't a twist connector, just the the straight prongs?

The twist-lock connector is the NEMA L5-30 inlet on the side of the trailer and matching end on the optional removable power cord. If your cord is not removable, it has no connector at that location and there is no twist-lock connection anywhere.

Yes, the only common 30-amp receptacle in a campground is the NEMA TT-30 - the one that fits the TT-30 plug on the end of the trailer's cord (fixed or removable) with two big straight flat prongs at right angles to each other, plus a big straight round ground prong.

There are twist-lock (L5-30) receptacles in marinas, for boats to plug in - marinas are where the term "shore power" comes from. Generators capable of more than 20 amps output at 120 volts often have this style of receptacle as well, so extension cords with L5-30 connectors (one of each gender) on both ends are sometimes called "generator cords"; they can be used as extensions for trailers with 30-amp removable shore power cables. Unfortunately, facilities for RVs on land went with the less secure and harder to use TT-30 connector style.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I think that we see different sides of the same coin. You see people that have made the decision to hire a pro. They're probably not as likely to DIY their reno. For many years I saw the other side of the coin. People who, with no training, "blew out walls" and did massive amounts of wiring and plumbing themselves. Some did well but most were code violations in one form or another. Ever been in an 18" high crawlspace, feel something dragging down your back, only to discover later that when they put in the gas range they just shoved the old electric range cable down the hole, leaving it still hooked up at the panel.

Plus, don't know about Calgary, but in Vancouver young couples buying a "fixer upper", gutting it, and doing massive amounts of framing, electrical and plumbing is a blood sport and a way to make a lot of tax free money.

In campgrounds, if it's an old one I might stick my tester in but that's about it. Since we don't use an a/c I don't worry about the power supply too much.

Ron

I have seen a lot of both sides of that coin. Yes, people hiring me are looking fro a proper professional job, but while doing these jobs we run across a ton of bad practices, with electrical, plumbing, framing, finishing, you name it. We are constantly shaking our heads at things we find.

There are usually two ways a homeowner goes with doing their own work, either overbuilding to the nth degree, WAY beyond what is required, to underbuilding things to the degree it is just scary.

It could be regional too, in that I think more people in urban settings hire professional help than those in rural settings. I have a lot of friends in the North Shuswap, some of whom who were ex-hippies looking for a place to homestead. Heart and desire were strong, but knowledge and money a bit lacking. Much of what they built back in the early 70's was a bit scary to say the least, though some of that is still surviving to this day. There are lots of good practises happening around there now, but still a few that are quite questionable. I have seen the same with friends in Golden and Windemere area too. Lots of "cabins" owner built with more gusto than common sense.

Originally Posted by garysd

Greggo, so ETI is putting twist connectors on the power cord now? And from your comment it seems that some (maybe most?) campground pedestals don't a twist connector, just the the straight prongs?

Gary

They are not 30A twist connectors, but straight prong plugs at the pedestal end. He is likely just referring to the connection at the trailer which does use a twist, and a threaded locking nut.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

It could be regional too, in that I think more people in urban settings hire professional help than those in rural settings. I have a lot of friends in the North Shuswap, some of whom who were ex-hippies looking for a place to homestead. Heart and desire were strong, but knowledge and money a bit lacking.

Heart and desire..... I've been there in my younger days.

Not just a rural thing in the Vancouver area. I've watched with pride as young friends bought their first fixer upper, reno'd it and moved on to do it several more times ending up multi-millionaires. Property in this area is just so costly and there has been so much money to be made fixing and flipping houses. A lot of the folks doing it don't have trade skills but they do it anyway.

Ron

[garysd]

Thanks, Brian and Jim. I understand now! I wish there was a Smilie with a lightbulb over the head. I've learned so much from this forum!

Gary

[Greggo]

Originally Posted by garysd

Greggo, so ETI is putting twist connectors on the power cord now? And from your comment it seems that some (maybe most?) campground pedestals don't a twist connector, just the the straight prongs?

Gary

Not to worry, only on the trailer end of the removeable cord.

G

[H46Driver]

I've encountered reversed polarity three times (actually 4 if you count two pedestals in the same campground - Outwest Campground in Springtown, TX - don't stay there!). One of them was at the campground at Barksdale AFB. We got in late and got the last site. 30 amp was reversed but they had 50 amp so we used that with 50 to 30 adapter. When I mentioned it at the desk the next morning the girl told me that the head electrician on base was aware of it and said it was not a problem (what??) then she proceeded to tell me that the only people who ever complained about it were the ones with "those checker thingies".

[Jim Bennett]

Gotta put my learning hat on, but are 50A services at campsites 240V?

If so, it would be much tougher to screw that up, short of swapping a neutral with one of the hots, which could be catastrophic, as on one leg you would be putting 240V through those circuits, with the other leg reverse polarity.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Gotta put my learning hat on, but are 50A services at campsites 240V?

Sort-of-yes: the receptacle is a NEMA 14-50, exactly the same as a common residential kitchen range. Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and ground. Although there is 240 V across the two lines ("hot" terminals), 240-volt devices are rare (if they exist at all) in RVs; the service is typically used as two 50-amp 120V supplies.

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

If so, it would be much tougher to screw that up, short of swapping a neutral with one of the hots, which could be catastrophic, as on one leg you would be putting 240V through those circuits, with the other leg reverse polarity.

That's how I see it, too. It seems unlikely that this would go unnoticed for long.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by H46Driver

When I mentioned it at the desk the next morning the girl told me that the head electrician on base was aware of it and said it was not a problem (what??) then she proceeded to tell me that the only people who ever complained about it were the ones with "those checker thingies".

If someone said that to me I'd have a hard time being polite. Amazing, it's such a simple fix.

Ron