How much propane do you burn below freezing? - Escape Trailer Owners Community

Go Back   Escape Trailer Owners Community > Escape Tech > Escape Systems | Water, Waste, Charging & Propane
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-09-2014, 09:31 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
How much propane do you burn below freezing?

Lets say you are camping at dead freezing point temperature (zero degree), and your thermostat is set at 20C, how fast do you burn your propane? I'm trying to determine if two 20lb tanks are sufficient or not for what we need.

We don't expect to do any winter camping, but we could end up camping where during the night, it falls below zero every night and we could be there for 2 weeks or more.

I will add as much solar as it is physically possible if I choose to go with the Escape 21 but I don't think that helps to fight below zero condition.
__________________

yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 09:57 AM   #2
Site Team
 
cpaharley2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Trailer: Escape#4, 2019 Escape21 DejaView pulled by 2014 Ram Hemi/8sp
Posts: 19,409
I have camped down to 5 degrees F and utilized both the on board propane as well as supplemental electric heat. It was comfortable with both and it would be comfortable with just the propane but you will use a lot more propane without the supplement electric heat. The dual tanks should last you at least 2 weeks on propane alone. That said, I would not camp for more than one night without the supplemental electric, more as a safety issue than comfort. I assume you have the thermal package and the spray foam addition.
On edit, your -0- is 32 F so you should be fine on propane alone. Just check the tanks daily and when the tank switches over, get the other tank filled. My single ETI panel installed has my group 29 battery recharged by noon during the winter.
__________________

__________________
Jim
It is not the years in your life but the life in your years Lincoln
cpaharley2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 10:42 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Supplemental electric heat probably needs shore power, correct? The places I plan to visit won't have any shore power so I'll have to do with just the propane for the heat source. I doubt it will reach as low as 5F though.

Do you think I can get by 2 weeks on just two 20lb tanks? Or should I figure out a way to accommodate 30lb tanks?

And yes, the setup will be equipped with additional insulation, thermal windows, additional foams and heat pads. It will also have at least two 6V batteries (looking for ways to accommodate 4, if possible) and significantly more than 95w of solar panels.
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 12:30 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2012 15A
Posts: 396
If weight becomes a concern you might be better off considering bringing along an extra 20 lb tank than changing out the 20 lb ones for 30 lb. Most of the year you would not need the extra propane and therefore the extra weight which will be on the tongue?
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 12:31 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: lima, Prince Edward Island
Trailer: none
Posts: 44
Do you know how often the furnace fan would be on at 32 F (+/-)? Maybe 20 mins per hour, 15 amps in a day?

( trying to figure out what the "base" loads will be for a 24 hour period, then relate that to battery and solar choice. I'm guessing 5 amps for water pump, 3 for LEDs, 5 for miscellaneous detectors, 4 amps for Maxxfan on low, plus? )
cargofool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 12:39 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
santacruzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 754
I think you're attempting to make calculations where there are just too many variables. For example, how many times a day will you open and close the door? Any windows or vents open? No trailer yet, so you don't know what, if any insulation capacity exists, nor do you know the output capacity of your heater. Too much going on...
__________________
2009 Tacoma Crew Cab, TRD 4WD
2007 Tundra Double Cab TRD 4WD
2014 Escape 19
2007 Norwegian Elkhound "Baxter"
santacruzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 12:45 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: lima, Prince Edward Island
Trailer: none
Posts: 44
agreed - an impossibly complex task to estimate how often the fan comes on.

Although, I do suppose that someone with a 19' trailer (yhbae is talking 21', but they are so new I suspect there may not be tons of real world experience yet), with insulation, with double pane windows, with spray foam, who has been in cooler temps, may have some sense of how often their fan runs with furnace set for some modest interior temp.

And a "sense" of the thing is probably as close as can get.
cargofool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 12:45 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Hmm, perhaps carrying another 20lb could be a feasible solution. But I will make sure the TV can handle the weight of 30lb tanks at the hitch, so ideally if I don't need to touch those tanks (except for fill-ups), that would be the best.

I've already done some exercise on the solar sizing, and it tells me I need more than two batteries. I'm also looking for a way to add either 3 or 4 of those 95w panels. Looks like Escape 21 cannot handle two 160w panels but it appears to be possible to add 3 95w panels. Someone has already (successfully) installed one 95w and one 160w on Escape 19, so I assume this is feasible on Escape 21 as well. Even 4x95w might be possible as well but hard to tell just by looking at the pictures (I haven't purchased the trailer yet).

The idea here is to use more small panels so that if I get partial shades, hopefully, they won't cover all the panels at the same time. With big panels, even a small partial shade results in almost no power for me.
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:02 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: lima, Prince Edward Island
Trailer: none
Posts: 44
Do you know ( or care) if the new 5.0 TA offers more available space than the 21' for mounting your various solar panels? Probably will not differ much, just a thought that popped up.
cargofool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:22 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cargofool View Post
Do you know ( or care) if the new 5.0 TA offers more available space than the 21' for mounting your various solar panels? Probably will not differ much, just a thought that popped up.
I thought about it, but I think a SUV will suit my lifestyle better than a pickup. Plus, for some reason, even the new 5.0 features smaller holding tanks than the Escape 21 and for me, bigger holding tanks is a BIG plus. If I could pay extra to get larger holding tanks, I would.
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:40 PM   #11
Site Team
 
cpaharley2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Trailer: Escape#4, 2019 Escape21 DejaView pulled by 2014 Ram Hemi/8sp
Posts: 19,409
Yes, supplemental means hook ups, but with temperatures down to freezing- my 32/your 0 I would not be afraid of getting by with the propane furnace. The Atwood 8012 has the lowest 2 amp draw on the market, assuming 24 hours of heat in a solar cycle @ 50% run is 24 amps, you will not need the furnace and fan together, fan is more for cooling, just opening the vent will take care of condensation. maybe another 10-15 for other so your use of about 40 amps per solar day. The dual 6's will be adequate with over 100 amp reserve. Your heat pads should not be used unless you are hooked up, that is why I dropped them off my new Escape. I had them one my other Escape and only used them while hooked up, They will go thru a battery real quick and with the furnace you will not need them. They are thermostatically controlled, on at 30 and off at 40. But you do have an on/off switch to turn them off, make sure of that.
My calculation for a winter or summer day is about 30-35 amps, with a single group 29 battery and 130 amps, I have about 1/2 of the 2x6's reserve. Unless you use a lot of 12v, you may be fine with just the2 batteries and 2 panels. Just my $.02 worth and from my past experience in camping with solar.
__________________
Jim
It is not the years in your life but the life in your years Lincoln
cpaharley2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:50 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Yes, supplemental means hook ups, but with temperatures down to freezing- my 32/your 0 I would not be afraid of getting by with the propane furnace. The Atwood 8012 has the lowest 2 amp draw on the market, assuming 24 hours of heat in a solar cycle @ 50% run is 24 amps, you will not need the furnace and fan together, fan is more for cooling, just opening the vent will take care of condensation. maybe another 10-15 for other so your use of about 40 amps per solar day. The dual 6's will be adequate with over 100 amp reserve. Your heat pads should not be used unless you are hooked up, that is why I dropped them off my new Escape. I had them one my other Escape and only used them while hooked up, They will go thru a battery real quick and with the furnace you will not need them. They are thermostatically controlled, on at 30 and off at 40. But you do have an on/off switch to turn them off, make sure of that.
My calculation for a winter or summer day is about 30-35 amps, with a single group 29 battery and 130 amps, I have about 1/6 of the 2x6's reserve. Unless you use a lot of 12v, you may be fine with just the2 batteries and 2 panels. Just my $.02 worth and from my past experience in camping with solar.
Thanks for the info - very useful.

I believe one of the main difference in usage pattern between us will be the 12v/110v usage - we plan to use our laptops liberally during the evenings and the nights. We will probably end up using the 12v TV quite a bit as well. And since all this happens when the sun is already down, I will need more battery capacity.
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:57 PM   #13
Site Team
 
cpaharley2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Trailer: Escape#4, 2019 Escape21 DejaView pulled by 2014 Ram Hemi/8sp
Posts: 19,409
Most computers are 12v if they have one of those black bricks, thus you may only need 12v and no 120v via an inverter.
__________________
Jim
It is not the years in your life but the life in your years Lincoln
cpaharley2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 01:58 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Most computers are 12v if they have one of those black bricks, thus you may only need 12v and no 120v via an inverter.
Even better!
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 02:29 PM   #15
Site Team
 
Donna D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 8,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Plus, for some reason, even the new 5.0 features smaller holding tanks than the Escape 21 and for me, bigger holding tanks is a BIG plus. If I could pay extra to get larger holding tanks, I would.
Don't know where you read that... maybe an Classic 5 brochure? But the new 5er and the 21' have the same 30 gallon holdings tanks for gray and fresh. Right now the black is TBD, but the 21 has a 22 gallon blackwater tank, I'm betting so will the new 5er.

Besides, why do you want to store so dang much dirty water? If you're a boondocker OR in an unimproved site, there are plenty of ways to get rid of it rather than store it and it doesn't mean you have to hookup and drive to a dump station. That can be a huge amount of unnecessary weight to take down the road...
Donna D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 03:15 PM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Trailer: None yet
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
Don't know where you read that... maybe an Classic 5 brochure? But the new 5er and the 21' have the same 30 gallon holdings tanks for gray and fresh. Right now the black is TBD, but the 21 has a 22 gallon blackwater tank, I'm betting so will the new 5er.

Besides, why do you want to store so dang much dirty water? If you're a boondocker OR in an unimproved site, there are plenty of ways to get rid of it rather than store it and it doesn't mean you have to hookup and drive to a dump station. That can be a huge amount of unnecessary weight to take down the road...
Oh they need to update their website in that case - it says 20/26/19g...

Our preference is to camp at more remote national and province parks. There are dump stations in those locations but I prefer not to move the trailer for at least one week if at all possible. I'm not too concerned about the black tanks but the fresh and the gray, I prefer to have larger tanks. I may carry some fresh water down the road but not likely to carry gray or black water on the travel.
yhbae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 06:55 PM   #17
Site Team
 
Donna D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 8,490
That's my point, you don't have to move the trailer. I can't help with adding to the freshwater supply other than to say to carry a collapsible five gallon jug and fill the freshwater as needed.

Now the gray water can be dumped into any gray water drain. I don't know about the parks you stay at, but in most of the parks I stay at there are gray water disposal sites about every third site. I made a homemade blue tote for less than $20 and can drain off graywater daily, pickup the tote and drain. Or if you're truly boondocking, dig a hole and pour it in (following environmental rules of course). I use the same tote to drain off blackwater and either put that down the pit toilet or take it up to the shower house and down a flushy.

With this method, gray and black water holding tanks are never an issue. YMMV
Donna D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 07:22 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 11,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Oh they need to update their website in that case - it says 20/26/19g...
Correct. The specs and photos are of the original 5.0, not the new 5.0 TA (the first one of which is now under construction).
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 07:25 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 11,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
Now the gray water can be dumped into any gray water drain. I don't know about the parks you stay at, but in most of the parks I stay at there are gray water disposal sites about every third site.
This definitely varies by region. I've seen sewer service at sites, and at a common location for the campground, but I've never seen a gray-only sewer, or any kind of sewer dispersed around the campground this way. Granted, that's from a relatively small sample of public and private campgrounds in six provinces, and as few as only two locations in each province.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 07:28 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 11,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Most computers are 12v if they have one of those black bricks, thus you may only need 12v and no 120v via an inverter.
Not that I've seen. While there are power supply bricks available that run from 12 VDC (usually aftermarket, not from the computer manufacturer), I have only seen one brand that accepted 12 VDC directly - that was Apple, it didn't work very well, and it no longer works for any current model from them.

Common laptop computer input voltages are around 19 volts. The 12V-in aftermarket "travel" power supplies are a good way to avoid using an inverter.

Small televisions, on the other hand, are commonly 12 VDC in if they use an external brick.
__________________

Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off






» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Escape Trailer Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.
×