To Empty or Not To Empty?

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Okay, you got my dander up and I'll play. There is NO SUCH thing as a composting toilet for an RV. NONE. I don't care what fancy name it's called. It takes from 4 months to a full year for human feces to COMPOST from last use. Until then, you have nothing more than a human litter box. Double bagging poop is just adding more plastic to the landfills. So while your poop may compost inside the double plastic bags, it's NOT doing Mother Nature much of a favor. Many of us are trying to use LESS plastic. Pant, pant, pant... whew. Old fashioned outhouses over a hole in the ground make better composters....

AMEN!!! Well put. Totally agree and I am a Licensed Wastewater treatment plant operator.

[chesaka]

Wow. Not a lot of agreement here on my original question. Interesting. I do use Happy Camper. I do flush with lots of water. I do use the cleaning wand occassionally. I do know about the 2/3 rule and will add water to the system to get a complete dump if needed. And I don't allow toilet paper down the loo. I guess I will avoid letting smaller amounts of pee and poo sit in the tanks until my next outing but I honestly can't see the harm as long as the tank does not dry out. Going to the dump station to dump when it's at 1/3 or less at the end of a trip is not usually what I want to do. I usually just want to get home.

[brroberts]

I’d dump as it doesn’t smell better later to me, but I can dump at home also.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by chesaka

Wow. Not a lot of agreement here on my original question. Interesting. I do use Happy Camper. I do flush with lots of water. I do use the cleaning wand occassionally. I do know about the 2/3 rule and will add water to the system to get a complete dump if needed. And I don't allow toilet paper down the loo. I guess I will avoid letting smaller amounts of pee and poo sit in the tanks until my next outing but I honestly can't see the harm as long as the tank does not dry out. Going to the dump station to dump when it's at 1/3 or less at the end of a trip is not usually what I want to do. I usually just want to get home.

You are doing the right thing in my book. Although if it doesn't start stinking and it doesn't dry out don't worry about it, just plan on using the flushing wand next time. My solution is to dump out at home. I use a 5 gal bucket ... fill it about 1/2 way(easier to carry) from the waste valve(I put the right angle piece that is designed to go into the dump station right on the trailer to direct it into the bucket so it avoids splashing etc) bring it into the house and dump in the toilet. I just did that this morning after being at a music festival for the weekend (they did not have dump stations). A little gross for some people but easy peasy!

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

AMEN!!! Well put. Totally agree and I am a Licensed Wastewater treatment plant operator.

Okay. I'll bite. Tell me how flushing urine down a toilet, pouring dish and shower water down a drain, and throwing bagged human fecal matter mixed with coconut coir in the landfill (along with bagged dog poop, dead animals, other toxic stuff that we collective humans throw away) is worse than dumping a black tank in a septic (as is the case in many remote campgrounds) or a sewer system. I thought landfills were lined specifically to protect ground water? Is that wrong?

As a foot note, at our current use rate, we will have disposed of the equivalent of a 5 gallon bucket of solid waste in a year.

Not being snarky, I really do want to know.

[escape artist]

Hi: All... This issue reminds me of the "Lone Ranger". To the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

Okay. I'll bite. Tell me how flushing urine down a toilet, pouring dish and shower water down a drain, and throwing bagged human fecal matter mixed with coconut coir in the landfill (along with bagged dog poop, dead animals, other toxic stuff that we collective humans throw away) is worse than dumping a black tank in a septic (as is the case in many remote campgrounds) or a sewer system. I thought landfills were lined specifically to protect ground water? Is that wrong?

As a foot note, at our current use rate, we will have disposed of the equivalent of a 5 gallon bucket of solid waste in a year.

Not being snarky, I really do want to know.

No problem.
Bagged fecal matter unless properly composted (this means maintaining 170 deg F for 36 hours in all parts of the compost material) is loaded with pathogens. When the dumpster is emptied into a compactor truck your bags can pop and the poop juice that leaks out can have all sorts of pathogens in it. A pathogen can make you very sick very quickly. A major debilitating portion of illness in developing countries is caused when people defecate on the surface of the ground. That is where the poop juice and other dumpster juice ends up A septic tank and leachfield(properly operated and maintained) or a town sewer and a wastewater treatment plant kill these pathogens. I have not seen empirical evidence(I looked it up as I was interested in the idea) and cannot fathom from my years of experience how a camper "compost" toilet even under the supervision of an expert can attain the kill needed to make the compost safe. A home composting toilet on the other hand IS capable and quite good at attaining a good kill of pathogens. A good treatment system in addition to killing the nasty pathogens also can create biosolids which when properly used also remove the nutrient part from the waste stream(human feces and urine is high in nitrogen and phosphorus compounds, look at your fertilizer bag, that pollute our waterways). Adding more stuff to our landfills is not the best use of space either and in current landfill design and operation things DO NOT break down appreciably.. They are designed to keep whatever we put there in but....

If you are set on the composting toilet in your camper as many seem to be, it would be much better to bury your fecal matter in your back yard in an area where there is not high groundwater or flush it down the toilet. Please keep your poop out of the landfill!

Bagged dog poop and dead animals in the trash....why do people think this is ok Dog poop and for that matter cow manure are actually a real pollution problem if not managed properly.

Humans need to think more about what they use and throw away as much of it does not really go away....

[zoolie]

This is an interesting conversation. In my research I have found the fundamentals to be:
1. Always have 25% ish water in the black tank when not winterized
2. Try to have the black tank close to full before dumping
3. Drive around before dumping to stir up the blackwater

Mixed Opinions:
1. Using single ply toilet paper vs double
2. Which tank treatment to use, if at all
3. Letting the black water sit or draining after each trip even if not close to full

I have leaned to using the advice from the RV maintenance technician in this video:
https://youtu.be/fs7YE9hmD7k

Really only time will tell. Or if someone has had a negative outcome using any of the above methods I would be interested to know what you did wrong and what you are doing now to have remedied it.

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

No problem.
Bagged fecal matter unless properly composted (this means maintaining 170 deg F for 36 hours in all parts of the compost material) is loaded with pathogens. When the dumpster is emptied into a compactor truck your bags can pop and the poop juice that leaks out can have all sorts of pathogens in it. A pathogen can make you very sick very quickly. A major debilitating portion of illness in developing countries is caused when people defecate on the surface of the ground. That is where the poop juice and other dumpster juice ends up A septic tank and leachfield(properly operated and maintained) or a town sewer and a wastewater treatment plant kill these pathogens. I have not seen empirical evidence(I looked it up as I was interested in the idea) and cannot fathom from my years of experience how a camper "compost" toilet even under the supervision of an expert can attain the kill needed to make the compost safe. A home composting toilet on the other hand IS capable and quite good at attaining a good kill of pathogens. A good treatment system in addition to killing the nasty pathogens also can create biosolids which when properly used also remove the nutrient part from the waste stream(human feces and urine is high in nitrogen and phosphorus compounds, look at your fertilizer bag, that pollute our waterways). Adding more stuff to our landfills is not the best use of space either and in current landfill design and operation things DO NOT break down appreciably.. They are designed to keep whatever we put there in but....

If you are set on the composting toilet in your camper as many seem to be, it would be much better to bury your fecal matter in your back yard in an area where there is not high groundwater or flush it down the toilet. Please keep your poop out of the landfill!

Bagged dog poop and dead animals in the trash....why do people think this is ok Dog poop and for that matter cow manure are actually a real pollution problem if not managed properly.

Humans need to think more about what they use and throw away as much of it does not really go away....

Thanks, that is a very good explanation. A couple of points:

If by home composting toilet you mean an incinerator type composting toilet, I would agree there is a difference, however the composting toilets used by ETI are the same toilets installed in most off grid homes. I am not aware of a specific RV composting toilet, but good to know.

Thanks for the tip on burying the compost. That would be really easy to do.

Composting toilets are in fact fecal material dehydrators. So there is no juice. Trust me on this. The material is drier than dry. Urine goes into a separate container and is flushed down a toilet.

Finally:
You may want to tell cities across the country that bagged dog poop shouldn't go in the trash. I don't think it will go over well but if it is that dangerous, they should know, right?

Yes, we are set on having a composting toilet. The issues (and I agree they are valid) you outlined are far easier to mitigate than justify sending clean, drinking water into a black tank.

Appreciate the response!

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

There is NO SUCH thing as a composting toilet for an RV. NONE. I don't care what fancy name it's called. It takes from 4 months to a full year for human feces to COMPOST from last use.

Shhh! You're ruining all the virtue signaling and rants about wasting water.

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Shhh! You're ruining all the virtue signaling and rants about wasting water.

Feel free to waste all the water you want, my friend.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Okay, you got my dander up and I'll play. There is NO SUCH thing as a composting toilet for an RV. NONE. I don't care what fancy name it's called. It takes from 4 months to a full year for human feces to COMPOST from last use. Until then, you have nothing more than a human litter box. Double bagging poop is just adding more plastic to the landfills. So while your poop may compost inside the double plastic bags, it's NOT doing Mother Nature much of a favor. Many of us are trying to use LESS plastic. Pant, pant, pant... whew. Old fashioned outhouses over a hole in the ground make better composters....

You can lead a horse to water . . . . .

I like the "human liter box". It's very accurate and appropriate. For some, the truth hurts.

Originally Posted by SageRpod

As a foot note, at our current use rate, we will have disposed of the equivalent of a 5 gallon bucket of solid waste in a year.

So the same as everyone else, but in a landfill, not a treatment facility or a proper drain field. I find your concept environmentally unfriendly, as are landfills.

Originally Posted by SageRpod

the composting toilets used by ETI are the same toilets installed in most off grid homes. I am not aware of a specific RV composting toilet, but good to know.

The "composting" toilet used by ETI is not even close to the true composting toilets I've seen in off-grid homes. However, many off-grid homes are not actually composting. The compost I've seen from real composting toilets can be used in gardens, but it takes a couple of years to get basically sterile of disease pathogens.

Think "Clivus Multrum".

Food for thought,

Perry

[rbryan4]

I suppose if someone told me they had a "composting" toilet in their RV, AND that they took the waste from it and always put it in their home compost bin once their trips were completed, AND that they then allowed it to actually compost, AND they then used that compost to amend their garden soil, I'd be thinking great idea. It still wouldn't be my cup of tea, as I have a quota on ANDs. [emoji23]

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

Thanks, that is a very good explanation. A couple of points:

If by home composting toilet you mean an incinerator type composting toilet, I would agree there is a difference, however the composting toilets used by ETI are the same toilets installed in most off grid homes. I am not aware of a specific RV composting toilet, but good to know.

Thanks for the tip on burying the compost. That would be really easy to do.

Composting toilets are in fact fecal material dehydrators. So there is no juice. Trust me on this. The material is drier than dry. Urine goes into a separate container and is flushed down a toilet.

Finally:
You may want to tell cities across the country that bagged dog poop shouldn't go in the trash. I don't think it will go over well but if it is that dangerous, they should know, right?

Yes, we are set on having a composting toilet. The issues (and I agree they are valid) you outlined are far easier to mitigate than justify sending clean, drinking water into a black tank.

Appreciate the response!

Actually the home composting toilets I was speaking about are much larger versions of what ETI uses...look up the Clivis Multrum(there are others) which has been around for years and due to its size and features can work quite well. Incinerator toilets are effective at getting rid of pathogens but are power hogs, do not actually compost but burn the waste and I have heard can emit quite a stink. Heat is the main factor in killing pathogens and that takes energy or space and time to generate.

I did not realize that rv composters did so much dehydrating. Unfortunately, desiccation or dehydration is not an effective method of eliminating pathogens. Pathogens can and do survive desiccation (unless the time is veeeeery long) ...plus you are using the toilet in a continuous mode rather than a batch mode which means even if by chance you are killing the pathogens by drying them out you reinoculated it each time you add more of your material. You could do a further composting at home in a bin with a clear lid...you would actually need to add liquid to get it to work. If you did not add any new material and got the pile to the magic 170 deg F for 36 hours you can get rid of the pathogens. I have seen that work in the summer in VT at hiking shelters. You do need to mix the pile once in a while and keep it somewhat moist but not soaking wet. The moral is don't put the waste in the dumpster, on the ground surface or on food crops, dispose of it responsibly whether you are using a composter, a black tank or another method!

Regarding the urine...it is relatively sterile, and some places are actually harvesting it and using it as a fertilizer as it is very high in nitrogen compounds.

BTW I am personally not a big black tank water user my wife and I can go well over a week with our black tank...most of our water use is showers and dishes but I do understand your point that the current municipal wastewater model is to use lots of clean water to move our wastes along. Not ideal but not too many average Americans would accept the work of the alternative systems( it is hard enough to get them to maintain sewers and septic systems properly)....we are good as long as the water comes out of the tap and the wastes go away is the attitude...

Yeah dog poop bags are a problem whether placed in a dumpster or left on the side of the trail. Take it out of the bag and bury it would be better.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

Urine can go down any toilet, double bagged compost can go in a dumpster,

$h-t does not belong in a dumpster. Double bagged or not.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

I am a Licensed Wastewater treatment plant operator.

I love it when someone who knows what they are talking about speaks out.
Thank you

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

I love it when someone who knows what they are talking about speaks out.
Thank you

Hi: sunrisetrucker... There's an app for that!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

$h-t does not belong in a dumpster. Double bagged or not.

So where should diapers go?

[bborzell]

I think this topic could have easily been placed in the “What have you done for your Escape” thread… I flushed it.

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

I love it when someone who knows what they are talking about speaks out.
Thank you

Agreed! We all obviously have trouble dealing with our crap, but I think there is another type of professional for that.