About to nix inverter, am I crazy?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

question on how many 12v plugs to add. if i were to use a plug-in splitter/converter? to change 120v to 12v, i can't use this while on battery power to use a 120v outlet like a 12v right? those 120v outlets won't be getting any power right?

12V outlets don't need any sort of splitter or converter, they are just wired to the existing 12V system (battery and converter output). If I was adding a bunch, I'd consider putting them on one or more additional fuses, the WFCO power panel that ETI uses has quite a few extra fused outputs...

120 to 12V, thats done by the standard WFCO converter, so it charges your battery whenever you are on 120VAC, AND runs all your 12V stuff

an inverter goes the OTHER way, 12VDC *to* 120VAC, which is what I thought this whole thread was discussing, this lets you run 120VAC devices when you're on battery only. I too have a portable AC inverter, a little one good for 400W, I don't use it much. a built in hard wired AC inverter requires a transfer switch to isolate the trailer's 120VAC from the power cord coming in.

did that make this any clearer ?

[SouthernCamper]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

12V outlets don't need any sort of splitter or converter, they are just wired to the existing 12V system (battery and converter output). If I was adding a bunch, I'd consider putting them on one or more additional fuses, the WFCO power panel that ETI uses has quite a few extra fused outputs...

120 to 12V, thats done by the standard WFCO converter, so it charges your battery whenever you are on 120VAC, AND runs all your 12V stuff

an inverter goes the OTHER way, 12VDC *to* 120VAC, which is what I thought this whole thread was discussing, this lets you run 120VAC devices when you're on battery only. I too have a portable AC inverter, a little one good for 400W, I don't use it much. a built in hard wired AC inverter requires a transfer switch to isolate the trailer's 120VAC from the power cord coming in.

did that make this any clearer ?

You're all doing a great job of explaining, I'm the brick wall here with the bad questions.

How do you have a 400w inverter? Do you have heavier gauge wiring somewhere? I thought 100-200 was the advised limit?

After talking myself in circles, I forgot about portable inverters. Can most 120v items (besides resistance type items I guess?) be reasonably run on a portable inverter? Anything that can't be would likely be something that you couldn't use much of anyway without sucking the battery dry, right?

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

You're all doing a great job of explaining, I'm the brick wall here with the bad questions.



How do you have a 400w inverter? Do you have heavier gauge wiring somewhere? I thought 100-200 was the advised limit?



After talking myself in circles, I forgot about portable inverters. Can most 120v items (besides resistance type items I guess?) be reasonably run on a portable inverter? Anything that can't be would likely be something that you couldn't use much of anyway without sucking the battery dry, right?

The microwave, which I believe was a key item in your deliberations, won’t run off a portable inverter.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

a built in hard wired AC inverter requires a transfer switch to isolate the trailer's 120VAC from the power cord coming in.

That is not correct. A transfer switch is not required for a built-in inverter. It is an optional item that makes *all* the plugs in the trailer hot, instead of just the one that’s on the inverter itself.

[SouthernCamper]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

The microwave, which I believe was a key item in your deliberations, won’t run off a portable inverter.

Right, sorry, I meant aside from that

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

Right, sorry, I meant aside from that

Like most things, the answer here is “it depends”. It all depends on whether what you want to run will exceed the capacity of the portable inverter *or* the wiring to the outlet. Or possibly the 12V outlet itself. They have limits too. So what you have to do is figure out how much your highest draw item is and whether it’s too much ch. It’s easy to know the inverter’s limit as that’s how they’re sold (100W, 200W etc), but maybe someone else can chime in with the max current for a standard ETI 12V outlet? 14 gauge wire, I think?

[SouthernCamper]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

It’s easy to know the inverter’s limit as that’s how they’re sold (100W, 200W etc), but maybe someone else can chime in with the max current for a standard ETI 12V outlet? 14 gauge wire, I think?

This is helpful. After this, I think I've had enough good opinions on either side to justify still being split with what I've learned we'll just have to make a choice, and be great either way I'm sure.

Is it silly to consider having ETI install the one 120v plug option for microwave use? That 120v would be ONLY for inverter use, so the microwave couldn't just stay plugged into that, right?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

That is not correct. A transfer switch is not required for a built-in inverter. It is an optional item that makes *all* the plugs in the trailer hot, instead of just the one that’s on the inverter itself.

Or, in my case, I use a simple switch as a transfer switch, (so power from shore power doesn't feed into the inverter and visca versa.) It's a "one or the other" situation. The outlets on the inverter are usable as is the microwave circuit. I could have made all the outlets live from the inverter but I really don't need that situation.

Anything larger than one that's meant to plug into an outlet usually is wired to the battery with larger cables. Not a very onerous job.

Ron

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

Is it silly to consider having ETI install the one 120v plug option for microwave use? That 120v would be ONLY for inverter use, so the microwave couldn't just stay plugged into that, right?

It's not silly, but it's not entirely straightforward. With no transfer switch (the extra piece of hardware which comes with the "all outlets" inverter installation), you have three choices:

1. leave the microwave plugged into the inverter all of the time, and run the inverter even when the trailer is plugged into shore power (for every minute running the microwave, the converter will take a couple of minutes to replace the charge in the battery)
2. have both the inverter outlet and a regular outlet installed in the microwave cabinet, and move the microwave cord between them depending on whether you the trailer is plugged into campsite power or you are running on batteries (and this isn't practical with the built-in microwave because that microwave is screwed into place and you can't reach the outlet)
3. custom-wire the microwave outlet to a manual switch, like Ron

For me, the best choice would be Ron's... or just choosing the all-outlets option.

[John in Santa Cruz]

my 400W inverter in fact has battery clips. I'm thinking of putting a powerpole 45A on it (12V 45A is over 400 watts), and one connected to the main fuse panel. most of the time i use this 400W inverter, its got way less than 100W on it anyways, I have some things with rechargable batteries that are 120V charge only..

lets see, this PI-400 inverter has 25A fuses on the DC inputs... huh, thats only 300 watts. says it draws less than 0.4A with no load and its 85% efficient. claims its 400W continuous with 800W peak output. I dunno how they can do that with 25A input fuses (12V * 25A == 300 watts).

[SouthernCamper]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It's not silly, but it's not entirely straightforward. With no transfer switch (the extra piece of hardware which comes with the "all outlets" inverter installation), you have three choices:

1. leave the microwave plugged into the inverter all of the time, and run the inverter even when the trailer is plugged into shore power (for every minute running the microwave, the converter will take a couple of minutes to replace the charge in the battery)
2. have both the inverter outlet and a regular outlet installed in the microwave cabinet, and move the microwave cord between them depending on whether you the trailer is plugged into campsite power or you are running on batteries (and this isn't practical with the built-in microwave because that microwave is screwed into place and you can't reach the outlet)
3. custom-wire the microwave outlet to a manual switch, like Ron

For me, the best choice would be Ron's... or just choosing the all-outlets option.

The switch sounds great, but I just wouldn't ever do it. Maybe in...10 years? Option 2 is a no go, what about #1? Is that reasonable?

I'd hardly considered the one outlet option, as when you're up in those numbers, what's another $300 cdn? But if leaving it exclusively on inverter is a good option, it's at least worth considering for a minute.

What about a previous poster (maybe this thread though I couldn't find it, maybe another) mentioning that staying under stated wattage for a plug-in inverter doesn't guarantee you won't melt the plug?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

What about a previous poster (maybe this thread though I couldn't find it, maybe another) mentioning that staying under stated wattage for a plug-in inverter doesn't guarantee you won't melt the plug?

Plug-in devices are OK up to a certain point. Limiting factors are the plug itself, they can become a loose fit with a poor contact and generate unwanted heat, the wiring size that supplies it and the fuse rating.

If I had a "plug-in" inverter, say 400 or so watts, rather then plug in and out repeatedly I'd simply mount it somewhere and run suitably sized wire directly to the panel terminals.

Ron

[John in Santa Cruz]

The cigar plug 12v outlets are only good for about 8 amps max... That's about 100 watts.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

... what about #1? Is that reasonable?

It's not ideal and not efficient, but if the microwave oven is only used briefly - even when on campsite power - I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted by SouthernCamper

I'd hardly considered the one outlet option, as when you're up in those numbers, what's another $300 cdn?

That would be my reasoning, too. I certainly wouldn't want to lose the opportunity to use any other 120 V AC thing that I might want to, just because I limited the big inverter to a single outlet.

[drjenk]

Question. During our orientation, we were told that if not using any ac items when boondocking, to switch the inverted output off (switch to shore power) because the inverter will load the batteries and will drain them. Now to me this does not sound right. If there is no ac item plugged in, it seems there would be no ac current draw, thus no dc current draw. Please sanity check me.


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[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by drjenk

During our orientation, we were told that if not using any ac items when boondocking, to switch the inverted output off (switch to shore power) because the inverter will load the batteries and will drain them. Now to me this does not sound right. If there is no ac item plugged in, it seems there would be no ac current draw, thus no dc current draw. Please sanity check me.

Like any electronic equipment, the inverter uses some power (a few watts) just to idle (not providing any power to AC devices). It's that idle power consumption that is avoided by turning the inverter off when it isn't needed.

It's a lot like idling the engine in your car. It doesn't use much fuel when it's not doing any useful work, but it does use some.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Like any electronic equipment, the inverter uses some power (a few watts) just to idle (not providing any power to AC devices). It's that idle power consumption that is avoided by turning the inverter off when it isn't needed.

It's a lot like idling the engine in your car. It doesn't use much fuel when it's not doing any useful work, but it does use some.

Yep. It helps if you think of the inverter as just another step in powering on an AC device and powering it off. I've forgotten to turn it off when not in use a few times, and did notice the small hit on the batteries.

[thiggins]

I went with the whole-house inverter for the wife. Happy wife, happy life...

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by drjenk

Question. During our orientation, we were told that if not using any ac items when boondocking, to switch the inverted output off (switch to shore power) because the inverter will load the batteries and will drain them. Now to me this does not sound right. If there is no ac item plugged in, it seems there would be no ac current draw, thus no dc current draw. Please sanity check me.


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My GoPower inverter (the one Escape is currently installing) draws 1.4 amps @ 12V with no load. There is a setting that allows you to choose a minimum "start" wattage that can lower this, but make it a pain for small loads.

[kfsmith]

hi again Carl
What size generator do you use and does it power the AC?
Thanks Kevin