Escape 5.0 TA Frame looks off center

[trainman]

Originally Posted by mizterwizard

A few years ago I worked at a Chevy dealer. They sold a truck to a couple who took it to a place that sold bed shells to have one installed. The installer noted that the bed wasn't quite square with the cab. In fact it was almost 1.5" low on the left side.

The couple brought the truck back to complain. I think they might never have noticed had they not been told about it but they had and they didn't like it. I was given the task of finding out why.

I measured everything related to the bed, frame and cab that I could find. Nothing individually was off a significant amount but everything was off a little, as you might expect. Typical errors were in the range of 1/8 inch but where there was a difference it yielded higher on the right side and lower on the left.

There was nothing that was actually "wrong" with the truck but the typical manufacturing tolerances had just built up in such a way as to make the right side of the bed higher than the left side. A couple of dozen normal manufacturing tolerances that typically cancel each other out had built up to make a crooked truck.

I swapped the wheels from side to side, swapped the springs and swapped the rear cab mounts. That brought the difference down to about half an inch. The rest was in the welding on the bed and other areas that couldn't be easily fixed.

At that point the bed was as level as most others on the lot but still not perfect. Since the customer had been sensitized to the situation they still weren't happy. I was told to shim up the bed on the left to make it even, which I did. When the customer found out how I had "fixed" it they really hit the roof. Eventually it went to a body shop. I don't know what they did but they got it perfect.

I don't think it made any difference in the way the truck worked but it made a difference in the way the customer felt about it.

I think that having the body of a 5.0TA off center one inch will not produce any measurable difference in the way if functions and certainly will not affect tire wear. It may affect the way you feel about it though.

I too am particularly sensitive to things that are misaligned and tend to fix a lot of things that aren't really broken. Some people are picky and others are more tolerant. If this misalignment matters to someone then they should get it fixed but to me, sensitive as I am, I think I would forget about it. Of course these days I tend to forget about things more easily than I used to.

I worked for Chevrolet Motor Division if some 35 years before retirement in in management of warranty claims. I can tell you it is a rear leaf or front coil spring problem, that is the springs are not manufactured with the same spring rate and it is not a match set. Dealers would measure the sag difference and pull the low side spring or coil and send it to a spring shop and they could heat and re-arch the spring to have the truck to set level. How many did we do under warranty, thousand just in the DFW area. If you stand behind a truck and look at the bed and if it sets unlevel just go to the front of the truck and lift up on the opposite low side fender and the bed will become level. Truck frames are very flexible and this was not an uncommon problem years ago, don't know what it is today as I have been retired for some eight years.

trainman

[Jim Bennett]

I finally got around to measuring my frame against the shell, and it actually is offset by 1/2" at the very front, and about half that at the front (propane and storage hatch wall).

[reace]

Sorry for the delay on this. I wanted to get some photos of the next 5.0 that was mounted onto the chassis.

When we mount the trailer bodies onto the chassis, we use a jig which centers the body onto the chassis. (see attached photos) This insures that the body is mounted squarely onto the chassis. Unfortunately on the 5.0, this highlights the fact that the upper nose section of the body was built slightly out of alignment with the rest of the body. If we were to center the upper section, we run into other complications with plumbing and gas lines being too tight to the chassis under the body, and essentially, the body would now be mounted crooked on the frame. This is one of the downsides of a handmade mold. We have been playing with this issue since the conception of the 5.0 TA since 2014.

Hope this helps to clear up any concerns.

Reace

[Hilola]

Originally Posted by reace

Sorry for the delay on this. I wanted to get some photos of the next 5.0 that was mounted onto the chassis.

When we mount the trailer bodies onto the chassis, we use a jig which centers the body onto the chassis. (see attached photos) This insures that the body is mounted squarely onto the chassis. Unfortunately on the 5.0, this highlights the fact that the upper nose section of the body was built slightly out of alignment with the rest of the body. If we were to center the upper section, we run into other complications with plumbing and gas lines being too tight to the chassis under the body, and essentially, the body would now be mounted crooked on the frame. This is one of the downsides of a handmade mold. We have been playing with this issue since the conception of the 5.0 TA since 2014.

Hope this helps to clear up any concerns.

Reace

Thanks, Reace! So can you confirm that this method is not a problem for either towing or tire wear?

[Brian B-P]

Thanks Reace! Excellent description of the situation.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Hilola

Thanks, Reace! So can you confirm that this method is not a problem for either towing or tire wear?

I can!

Having towed mine for two years now. As pointed out, the issue is the same as what I have, a slight bent nose. as the axles are mounted to the frame they are independent of this, thus the issue noted would not affect either towing or tire wear.

[Chotch]

The “Tempest in the Teapot “ has finally been calmed. 😂
Thank you Reace

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by Chotch

The “Tempest in the Teapot “ has finally been calmed. ��
Thank you Reace

Hi: Chotch... Just as I thought. A hand made product with slight irregularities... enjoy. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[cpaharley2008]

My thought exactly, no laser cut duplication but custom made. Another reason to not premake an item based upon someone else's unit measurement, yours may be just a little different, but it is yours!!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

My thought exactly, no laser cut duplication but custom made. Another reason to not premake an item based upon someone else's unit measurement, yours may be just a little different, but it is yours!!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Reace, but this doesn't appear to be the situation at all. The cause of the slightly off-centre loft is not unit-to-unit variations due to hand-building, but that every 5.0TA is not quite straight because the mould is not quite straight (in a way which does not cause any functional problem), so every unit has the same almost imperceptibly "bent nose".

As Reace explained:

Originally Posted by reace

... the upper nose section of the body was built slightly out of alignment with the rest of the body.
...
This is one of the downsides of a handmade mold.

This is an example of what Ron identified back in post #4 of this thread...

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

perfect symmetry in large f.g. parts is not a given

[cpaharley2008]

Brian, if you are going to quote me to disagree, at least also include the comment I was referring to Alf's explanation Hi: Chotch... Just as I thought. A hand made product with slight irregularities... enjoy. Alf
I was implying each Escape maybe different by model, by year, and by the carpenter working inside the model. All hand made not, machine made. You took it as each 5.0 TA exterior is different, which I was not implying.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Brian, if you are going to quote me to disagree, at least also include the comment I was referring to Alf's explanation Hi: Chotch... Just as I thought. A hand made product with slight irregularities... enjoy. Alf
I was implying each Escape maybe different by model, by year, and by the carpenter working inside the model. All hand made not, machine made. You took it as each 5.0 TA exterior is different, which I was not implying.

Okay, I missed your intent. Alf's comment didn't say anything about model-to-model versus unit-to-unit irregularities.

[mizterwizard]

If this was Ford or GM they would have hundreds of molds and would be replacing a few of them every month or so. With each generation of molds they would make some tweaks to correct irregularities in previous production.

This isn't a huge company though and resources are more limited. For what a major company pays their CEO in one year, ETI could completely rebuild from scratch. The economics are completely different.

What it comes down to is would it be worthwhile to the customers to pay a couple of thousand extra so that the molds could be upgraded as a need was discovered? I'm pretty sure Reese and company could find several things to improve, given funding and a clean sheet of paper. Is a 1 inch alignment problem between the frame and body worth the cost of retooling?

[mizterwizard]

Originally Posted by trainman

I worked for Chevrolet Motor Division if some 35 years before retirement in in management of warranty claims. I can tell you it is a rear leaf or front coil spring problem, that is the springs are not manufactured with the same spring rate and it is not a match set. Dealers would measure the sag difference and pull the low side spring or coil and send it to a spring shop and they could heat and re-arch the spring to have the truck to set level. How many did we do under warranty, thousand just in the DFW area. If you stand behind a truck and look at the bed and if it sets unlevel just go to the front of the truck and lift up on the opposite low side fender and the bed will become level. Truck frames are very flexible and this was not an uncommon problem years ago, don't know what it is today as I have been retired for some eight years.

trainman

The thing I did that made the most difference was swapping the spring from side to side. The second was inflating the tires equally. Either through neglect at the pre-delivery setup or from leakage while it waited on the lot, there was a significant difference in rear tire pressure.

I measured every thing though. The mounting brackets on the bottom of the bed, the distance from the bed floor to the side rails at all 4 corners, the height of the frame from the ground, the thickness of the cab mounting rubbers, parallelogram on the frame, thickness of the side rails, etc. Every measurement I made had some variance and it all favored right high and left low.

There was nothing really wrong. It was all normal manufacturing tolerances but in this particular case instead of canceling out they added up.

That is on an assembly that is probably built by robots. A hand made assembly like an Escape can either be much better if they want to spend the money on lots of quality checks, about the same or a little worse as far as fit and finish goes. I don't think ETI is going for the Rolls Royce crowd. I think they are trying to build for value rather than perfection.

There are people who take a brand new Rolls or Mercedes directly to specialty shops to have it rebuilt even better than what the factories do. The pursuit of perfection is never ending. Do we really want ETI to do that sort of thing? Who among us would pay the price?

[trainman]

I'm now having some thoughts about the 5.0 as a future trailer for us. If the factory is not willing to correct this problem, which it is not corrected easily and cheap then what other corners are they willing to cut and let go for quality. I'm one of the people who live in a world of parallels, that is what is equal on one side must equal the other, that is for things that are manufactured to be equal. All being said, it would be hard to order a new trailer and them have to take what they build, it won't be that you have a choice to walk around and look at several and then choose. Will be curious if Escape address this problem, I would think they won't due to cost of the fiberglass mold.
trainman

[Oldtimer]

Reace stated that they have been dealing with this since the 50 inception. They are not ignoring it compared to 95 % of the manufactures out there ETI builds a far superior product and they stand behind it making things right. What other manufacture does that. It there was a safety issue they would stop selling the 5 till they got it corrected and correct the ones that have been sold. Reace has done this in the past by goin* around himself ,the owner, and fixing the issue in each and every one out there. Show me another example where the owner has done that. If one does not want to buy quality escape then don’t . But saying they don’t care is way off base

[Donna D.]

Does your trailer crab going down the road? IF it doesn't, and I'm sure this problem wouldn't cause that, are you truly going to allow this minor 'issue' to stop your pleasure?

Those that demand symmetry to be satisfied, don't look at your feet, hands, ears or eyes. You'll never again be happy within your own skin.

Your budget, your needs, your decision on what trailer brand you buy or not. My trailer isn't perfect and neither am I. We're a good matched set. I'm far more irritated at the things I do to 'harm' Ten Forward then anything ETI did during production.

My trailer is a toy and not even the most expensive toy I own. Do I need it to be happy? No. But I choose to. Life is getting shorter at the other end.


YMMV.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by trainman

I'm now having some thoughts about the 5.0 as a future trailer for us. If the factory is not willing to correct this problem, which it is not corrected easily and cheap then what other corners are they willing to cut and let go for quality. I'm one of the people who live in a world of parallels, that is what is equal on one side must equal the other, that is for things that are manufactured to be equal. All being said, it would be hard to order a new trailer and them have to take what they build, it won't be that you have a choice to walk around and look at several and then choose. Will be curious if Escape address this problem, I would think they won't due to cost of the fiberglass mold.
trainman

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the consensus here is that it does not matter, purely cosmetic. If it did Reace and Co. would fix it. Not sure of your experience with other trailers, but with 7 different new units in past 12 years, everyone but Escape had manufacturing flaws, not cosmetic but structural.

[PGDriver]

Originally Posted by trainman

I'm now having some thoughts about the 5.0 as a future trailer for us. If the factory is not willing to correct this problem, which it is not corrected easily and cheap then what other corners are they willing to cut and let go for quality. I'm one of the people who live in a world of parallels, that is what is equal on one side must equal the other, that is for things that are manufactured to be equal. All being said, it would be hard to order a new trailer and them have to take what they build, it won't be that you have a choice to walk around and look at several and then choose. Will be curious if Escape address this problem, I would think they won't due to cost of the fiberglass mold.

trainman

After Reace’s explanation (and even before) I don’t see this as a problem, I think that if you checked points on any trailer you would find things out of symmetry, not many things in life are prefect.
I think there are so many good things about Escape trailers that one must except the very few (and to me insignificant) quirks.
I think the reason that no one noticed this on their trailers until now is that like myself they were to busy enjoying them camping.

[stratos175]

Hi Trainman,
I would agree with others if this were truly a problem with the quality of the product Reace would have fixed it by now.
Today is another day I've enjoyed reading some of the discussions on this forum and only wish I had the skills and knowledge many of you have to do mods and fix things as they arise. I do my research on things I buy almost to death sometimes because I want to be sure I'm getting the best value and quality at the best price possible and in my opinion you want a molded fiberglass trailer larger than 17' (we were happy with our Casita except for that) then I don't believe there is a better bang for your buck than and Escape.
That being said if everything you've read on this website and others about quality of Escape and even the owner of the company addressing a thread on a forum does not make you want to buy and Escape then I hope you find the right home on wheels for you.

Safe and fun travels to all.

Steve