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Old 04-07-2016, 10:45 AM   #31
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Building codes only work if you have tradesmen who follow them and inspectors who enforce them. I helped a friend fix some electrical problems / issues in his brand new $50 K 5th wheel trailer. The wiring in his trailer looked a lot like the photos in this thread. His trailer also did not come with a wiring schematic and when he asked for one , he was told that they are all wired differently , depends on which guy did the wiring and on which day of the week it was built . There are code requirements and there are best practice ,which by the photos in this thread neither were followed.
I find it hard to believe that the owner of Escape wants the wiring installed in this fashion but that he is too busy running his business to constantly watch over every step of the manufacturing process. He needs to be able to trust that his employes are doing their work to the standards he set.
It appears his trust maybe misplaced.

.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:07 AM   #32
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How many homes come with a wiring schematic? Sure, there is a layout of all the junction boxes, lights, plugs, cable, network, etc, but it is left up to the electrician as to how he wants to route wires, and complete the various circuits.

I am a journeyman power systems electrician, so I learned to wire all the control wiring in an extremely neat fashion, as it not only looks good, but allows for ease for making any changes in the future. All wires and cables are neatly run into bundles. Seeing my ticket does not cover regular electrical wiring (home or commercial), I rely on hiring electricians for company work. Though some do take great pride in doing good work, others do not care about how things look, just that they work well and meet code.

When I take out homeowner permits for myself, or do work under others homeowner permits, inspectors are usually blown away by how neat the work is. The inside of panels I wire look way neater, and more organized than that of most electricians.

My point here is, that supplying a schematic for most things would be a nightmare, especially for a company like Escape. They would have to pretty much generate one for every unit built, what with the extras folks as for, as well as changes that Escape makes as things progress, often driven by frequent customer requests. I know for my build, there is not way I would expect a schematic of the wiring, as I will be having a lot of additional wires run for my own specific needs, 3-way light circuit roughed in, drops for various future devices, 120V roughed in for water heater switching and electric heater. I know that these personal wants would differ from just about any other customer. It is easy to read the request on a build sheet, and pull the applicable wiring in place, but to generate a schematic for it would be an unreasonable request.

Besides, I have a good meter, as well as a good knowledge of circuitry, and can wring out any circuit should I need. I would certainly hope anyone else with desire to do this kind of work in their own trailers also has this capability.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:29 AM   #33
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My brother,a licensed electrician, and I rewired my first house after I had another electrician install a new panel and update my kitchen. We ran quite a few new circuits. We kept accurate records and made drawings. When I got ready to sell the house, I let the realtor know I had these and would provide them to the new owner. She told me this was not a good idea from a liability standpoint. So, I destroyed them and felt sorry for the subsequent owners who could have benefitted time wise. While a meter and sound logic and knowledge are paramount, neatness in my mind counts more in electrical and plumbing and the rest of the trades than it did in penmanship, but what was stressed more when we went to school? My writing is real nice though.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Building codes only work if you have tradesmen who follow them and inspectors who enforce them. I helped a friend fix some electrical problems / issues in his brand new $50 K 5th wheel trailer. The wiring in his trailer looked a lot like the photos in this thread. His trailer also did not come with a wiring schematic and when he asked for one , he was told that they are all wired differently , depends on which guy did the wiring and on which day of the week it was built . There are code requirements and there are best practice ,which by the photos in this thread neither were followed.
I find it hard to believe that the owner of Escape wants the wiring installed in this fashion but that he is too busy running his business to constantly watch over every step of the manufacturing process. He needs to be able to trust that his employes are doing their work to the standards he set.
It appears his trust maybe misplaced.

.
Morning Steve , this is a laymen in electrical speaking here . Are not the basic floor plans of the trailers all the same ?unlike homes which are all different ? The color of wires are a code to follow and you shouldn't be adding different colors to the wire runs ? Pat
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:36 AM   #35
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Be careful for what you wish for, skilled labor and journeymen can mean unions and then government intervention with regulations which can all lead to price increases, at least that is what happens down here in the lower 48.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:55 AM   #36
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My brother is a plumbing and hvac inspector for a large western state county. As a builder or homeowner that has pulled proper permits, each step of their work has to be inspected and signed off on. That is all that is missing here is a Quality Control person inspecting and signing off on each phase of the build. If not acceptable, it has to be redone to standards before they pass it.
Very simple process if you have a Quality Control person in place.if the work keeps coming to the QC person sub standard they know who needs additional training.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Be careful for what you wish for, skilled labor and journeymen can mean unions and then government intervention with regulations which can all lead to price increases, at least that is what happens down here in the lower 48.
Jim ,I am UNION electrician and proud of it. If I follow your logic , then you prefer to have the wiring done by untrained people with no regard to following the code just to possibly save a couple bucks.
If the improperly installed wiring starts a fire ,I am sure that the money you saved will be soothing .The purpose of the code is to protect life and property . If you can be political so can I.
I don't tell you how to do accounting so don't tell me how my job should be performed If I sound p_ _ _ed off ,I am .
Stick to a subject that you actually have knowledge.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:01 PM   #38
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I know I sound like a stuck record, but this is why we need to leave political comments off this forum....
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:10 PM   #39
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This thread has the hair standing on the back of my head.

Why is it that electrical codes exist? Because of electricians that do their job with a laissez faire attitude. Electrical codes are written to address past bad practices that have resulted in damage or death.

So electricians are NOT allowed to run circuits as they wish - there are rules that must be followed. Circuit loading, installation practices, wire size, etc are mandated by code to stop poor practices.

The pictures shown on this thread are unacceptable. I have a 21 ordered for Jan 2017 - I would not want to see anything like those pics. If the electrical is not correct, it gets stripped and rewired.

My credits - EE with 40 years experience. Any job I inspected that looked like those pics would have had the employee/contractor banned from ever working on any of my sites again.

(getting off soapbox now)
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Jim ,I am UNION electrician and proud of it. If I follow your logic , then you prefer to have the wiring done by untrained people with no regard to following the code just to possibly save a couple bucks.
If the improperly installed wiring starts a fire ,I am sure that the money you saved will be soothing .The purpose of the code is to protect life and property . If you can be political so can I.
I don't tell you how to do accounting so don't tell me how my job should be performed If I sound p_ _ _ed off ,I am .
Stick to a subject that you actually have knowledge.
It was not meant to be taken personally, training and unions are not synonymous, we can be trained but still not be in unionized. There are no unions in law, nor medical, accounting and a lot of other professions, but these people are all well trained. Mistakes are a part of life, if by a trained individual or anyone else.
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