2012 Escape AGM GIANT BATTERY vs lithium headache

[medora]

Hello all! We have 2012 17B that we just made some mods to (removing fridge and replacing with dometic DC cooler so that we have more bed space). To accommodate this -- and our penchant for two week boondocks in the forest -- we are also upgrading our solar from the one 100W panel/2 6v 224ah lead acid that Escape offered at the time to a 300W three panel system. Currently, our old school 6V batteries sit on the back bumper - which I think is different than later models, and why I'm making a new post on this ...

I planned to replace the 6V duo with AGM batteries - ideally 2 200ah -- as the solar controller in our Escape is not lithium friendly. BUT after many many hours getting the solar panels installed (yours truly as the installer - ask me about the great view from the heights ...), I'm realizing that without bringing in a welder and constructing a new GIANT battery hub on the back of our trailer, two 200ah AGMs aren't gonna work. I could do 2 100ah, but then I'm basically close to where I was capacity wise in the first place.

I am new to solar stuff - understanding the workings of/installing the new panels was a major project. I'm pretty exhausted by it (if I have to splice one more connector I may go postal!). But I don't really want to spend money on a welder to house giant batteries that are becoming obsolete ... so ... how hard would it be to bring these AGMS INSIDE the trailer, under where the dinette is? OR - how hard would it be for me to upgrade our panel and other necessary components to lithium? I'm seeing chatter about dc/dc converters, car alternators, etc -- my head starts to spin at the thought -- but maybe with coaching this is fairly straightforward?

[Rossue]

We have a 2014 21C with one 170 watt solar panel and 2 6V lead acid Interstate batteries. We've never needed more.

ETI still puts batteries on the bumper of a 17B; I would not overthink this and get too stressed out. Just go to Costco and get two new Interstate GC2 6V batteries. Probably cost you $200 total.

[medora]

Thanks! We pretty regularly max out our system when boondocking (the flickering LED lights is a familiar death knell) so we do need more ... the 300W panels will obviously fill the tank with gas more frequently but I'm not sure I am comfy with 2 100V AGMs. What ah are your 6v?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by medora

H

I could do 2 100ah, but then I'm basically close to where I was capacity wise in the first place.

.. how hard would it be to bring these AGMS INSIDE the trailer, under where the dinette is?

Two 100ah lithium can be discharged more deeply than your present batteries so that's unlikely to be a problem.

I seem to remember that the reason that the batteries are on the back bumper of a 17 was related to tongue weight. Might be wrong, but inside would reduce the tongue weight.

I'd just update the converter and go lithium. Once you use them you'd never want to go back to lead acid.

Ron

[dstreight]

^ If you relocate the batteries from the trailer's bumper to inside the trailer the effective tongue weight will go up...not down.

The only real downside to LiFePO4/LFP batteries is if you camp in below freezing temps. If the batteries are stored outside, nose or bumper, this is more of a challenge to remedy. But if the batteries are located inside the trailer its less of a concern/tech hurdle.

Although we're 100% electric on our customized 15A, I couldn't imagine going back to AGM. I've had LiFePO4/LFP in a couple different trailers and also in the bed of my '07 HD2500 Silverado since 2016 and they've performed to expectation.

If you haven't done so already, calculate how much battery (watt hours) you truly need...ditto solar panels with special attention paid to what time of year you boondock and at what latitudes. We generally see about 50% less solar input during November and March compared to late shoulder months & summer (full sun to full sun comparison).

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by medora

Thanks! We pretty regularly max out our system when boondocking (the flickering LED lights is a familiar death knell) so we do need more ... the 300W panels will obviously fill the tank with gas more frequently but I'm not sure I am comfy with 2 100V AGMs. What ah are your 6v?

Do you max out old batteries? Dual 6V Interstates are 225 AH combined.

[medora]

Thanks to everyone for the input so far. In answer to questions - yes we have maxed out using the 2 6v 224ah AGMS.. We camp for about two weeks in Killarney in late Sept/early Oct most years, and are eyeing Pukasawa next month. We do ok until abt 9-10 days in, and by that point if it’s cloudy we’re in trouble. That’s before adding a Dometic cooler (actually, there are TWO coolers we will now plug in). I worked with a great guy at AM Solar (highly recommend them) who helped me add up our usage - he’s the one who recommended the 300W array. Our dinette at the rear of the camper is now a permanent bed - I don’t know if AGMs right at the back wall there would change the tongue weight significantly?

Lithium is an investment - and I’m willing to do it IF the upgrade installation does not suck the life out of me (getting the two additional solar panels to fit around the various bumps/vents/etc on our old gal has been a bit of an epic, as have little things like learning to use a multimeter to check polarity). Is there a simple post somewhere that would walk me thru the necessary components (my “what to buy” list) - and give me a general sense of difficulty? If it’s mainly just swapping the solar controller that’s not a big deal to me.

THANK YOU!

[mvassallo]

Just as a reminder, the Costco Interstate 6 volt batteries do not have as much reserve capacity as the original 6 volts that came with our 2014 Escape 19.

From the Costco website:

Specifications:
• Group Size: GC2
• Part Number: 9-GC2-UTL
• Voltage: 6
• Reserve Capacity(RC) @ 25Amps: 383
• Reserve Capacity(RC) @ 75Amps: 105
• Amp Hours(Ah) @ 20Hr: 210
• Amp Hours(Ah) @ 5Hr: 175
• Length: 10 5/16"
• Width: 7 1/8"
• Height: 11"
• Weight: 58lbs
•

Original specs:

INTER GC2-ECL-UTL


Group Size: GC2
Part Number: GC2-ECL-UTL
Reserve Capacity (RC) @ 25 hr: 447
Amp Hours (Ah) @ 10 hr: 225
Length: 10-5/16"
Width: 7-1/8"
Height: 11"
Weight: 62 Lbs
Voltage: 6

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by medora

Hello all! We have 2012 17B that we just made some mods to (removing fridge and replacing with dometic DC cooler so that we have more bed space). To accommodate this -- and our penchant for two week boondocks in the forest -- we are also upgrading our solar from the one 100W panel/2 6v 224ah lead acid that Escape offered at the time to a 300W three panel system. Currently, our old school 6V batteries sit on the back bumper - which I think is different than later models, and why I'm making a new post on this ...

I planned to replace the 6V duo with AGM batteries - ideally 2 200ah -- as the solar controller in our Escape is not lithium friendly. BUT after many many hours getting the solar panels installed (yours truly as the installer - ask me about the great view from the heights ...), I'm realizing that without bringing in a welder and constructing a new GIANT battery hub on the back of our trailer, two 200ah AGMs aren't gonna work. I could do 2 100ah, but then I'm basically close to where I was capacity wise in the first place.

I am new to solar stuff - understanding the workings of/installing the new panels was a major project. I'm pretty exhausted by it (if I have to splice one more connector I may go postal!). But I don't really want to spend money on a welder to house giant batteries that are becoming obsolete ... so ... how hard would it be to bring these AGMS INSIDE the trailer, under where the dinette is? OR - how hard would it be for me to upgrade our panel and other necessary components to lithium? I'm seeing chatter about dc/dc converters, car alternators, etc -- my head starts to spin at the thought -- but maybe with coaching this is fairly straightforward?

LiFePO4 (lithium) batteries have finally reached the price point where you are much better off going with LiFePO4 batteries than AGM. Two deep cycle 200ah AGM batteries will give you between 200 and 300ah of usable power.

This single CHINS Bluetooth LiFePO4 Battery Smart 12V 300AH Lithium Battery with internal heater, will provide as much usable energy and last twice as long, at 1/4 the weight. This is the battery I have in the front box of my 2020 Escape 19.

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by Rossue

We have a 2014 21C with one 170 watt solar panel and 2 6V lead acid Interstate batteries. We've never needed more.

Just go to Costco and get two new Interstate GC2 6V batteries. Probably cost you $200 total.

Costco does carry the Interstate 6V, cheap. Reconsider, research this, as there are 2 versions of the Interstate 6V, and the Costco one is the less robust version, but at 1/2 the price of the better version.
You get what you pay for.
Trojan is another reputable supplier of 6V L.A. batteries.

[Sean Murry]

In our E19 we have a 7.3 cu ft DC only fridge from Novakool. Fantastic fridge. We have 4x100A Lithium batteries, 190W solar on the roof and then 2x100W portable panels that we can move around to chase the sun. We did replace the board on the power control unit to accommodate Lithium. That was an easy swap out. System works great. Only once did we run low on power, parked in the trees and no sun. Took us 7 days before we ran out. I do keep a Honda generator on board just in case, but have only had to use it once

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Do you max out old batteries? Dual 6V Interstates are 225 AH combined.

the Costco version of the Interstate GC2 are only 210AH, I believe. The original Interstate Extreme that my 2014 came with were rated at 232AH.

[John in Santa Cruz]

another factor of lithium iron phosphate vs lead acid... if you 70% discharge cycle your flooded lead acid golf cart batts, you'll get maybe 200 full cycles, and they will start dying after 3-5 years regardless of how much you've used them.... you can 90% cycle lithium batteries and get 5000+ cycles (I think my SOK 206AH LFP batteries are rated for 7000 cycles, thats 20 years of daily full cycling...)

[medora]

Thanks again all. I think the thing I need to understand at this point is how difficult it would be for me (limited electrical knowledge - I can change ousted, splice, use a multimeter, etc) to make this upgrade. What are the steps and what are the components (which also would allow me to price this).

[John in Santa Cruz]

https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post451608

approximate pricing for a minimum conversion.

changing the 12V power converter in the power module is pretty darn easy, its 5 wires and 2 or 4 screws. first, disconnect the shore power cord, and the battery - terminal, remove the faceplate on the converter (2 screws) then remove the 2-4 converter screws and start to slide the converter out to get some slack on the wires. there's a black (hot/live) and white (neutral) wire to the AC side of the power center, along with a green ground wire also to the AC side, then there's a + and - 12VDC wire to the fuse panel. note where each are connected, disconnect them, remove the converter, then slide in the replacement converter, fishing the wires through the holes in the panel between the converter and the AC and DC sides, connect the new wires to where the old ones went, bolt the converter in, replace its front panel, rehook up the battery - cables, and go to town.


edit: urp, I had the live and neutral wire colors reversed. fixed.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by medora

... we are also upgrading our solar from the one 100W panel/2 6v 224ah lead acid that Escape offered at the time to a 300W three panel system. Currently, our old school 6V batteries sit on the back bumper - which I think is different than later models, and why I'm making a new post on this ...

I planned to replace the 6V duo with AGM batteries - ideally 2 200ah -- as the solar controller in our Escape is not lithium friendly. BUT after many many hours getting the solar panels installed (yours truly as the installer - ask me about the great view from the heights ...), I'm realizing that without bringing in a welder and constructing a new GIANT battery hub on the back of our trailer, two 200ah AGMs aren't gonna work. I could do 2 100ah, but then I'm basically close to where I was capacity wise in the first place.

To be clear, is your plan to replace the current two 6 V 224 Ah flooded lead-acid batteries with two 12 V 200 Ah AGM lead-acid batteries, almost doubling total energy capacity? Without the change in voltage per battery this wouldn't make sense, as AGM batteries are no larger than flooded batteries of the same voltage and capacity.

What size or model of 12 V 200 Ah AGM battery are you considering?

[brroberts]

Just remember, if you put lithium outside, you can’t recharge below freezing.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by brroberts

Just remember, if you put lithium outside, you can’t recharge below freezing.

The battery I use and linked to has an internal heater so you can.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

...What size or model of 12 V 200 Ah AGM battery are you considering?

the only 12V 200AH lead acid battery size I'm familiar with is a 4D marine battery, which are about the size of two 6V golf cart batts (like, 21" x 9" x 9") and weigh 100-140 lbs each.

[Ron in BC]

Feather light compared to the 8D house battery in my sailboat.

After years of heavy lead acid batteries I'm glad lithium batteries have taken over, at least for me.

Ron