Do you drink the water?

[Dave&Kathie]

David sanitizes our tank at least once a year. We take a PUR water pitcher with us for drinking and cooking. I think it's the 7 cup, doesn't take up too much room on the counter. I carry one or two extra filters with us. Other that that we use the tank or the campground water for washing dishes, showers, etc.

Kathie

[Dee Lirious]

I would question the advisability of letting municipal water sterilize the water system. To the best of my knowledge, municipal water is sterilized at source, but, by the time it reaches the end user it is clean, but not a sterilizing agent its self. Fill your tank with pristine water, then run it through the tap with a contaminated aerator and viola, you are drinking contaminated water. You need to put chlorine in the tank, run all outlets to ensure that chlorinated water is in the line, and that the tank is completely full again, including the hot water tank. Then it has to sit for an hour or so, and then best to completely flush again. A process for sure. I used to own an off grid hunting lodge using lake water and because it was a commercial property, the water was tested by the government every month and I had to submit several samples from different locations, Like lodge kitchen, cabin 1 bathroom, cabin 5 kitchen. Granted an RV is much easier but the fundamentals are the same, don't do right and you might as well not bother doing it all. Not to mention some things like the infamous "beaver fever" are not treatable, they need special filtration. So do not be complacent about the water system. Just my experience for what its worth

[UncleTim]

Hey Dee:

I am taking your advice right now. 3.5 oz in 28 gallons of fresh.

Does it make sense to run that thru the black tank, or gray, and let it sit for an hour or so after disinfecting the fresh? We really only use ours for pee and never more than a little bit.

I would think that would give the black tank a little clean on the way out. I am thinking it would kill any bacteria.

Does it make sense to increase the concentration of bleach in the black tank?


Thanks for your help.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

Does it make sense to increase the concentration of bleach in the black tank?

Bacteria break down the contents of the black tank. I wouldn't want to kill them. You can use Odorloss to keep the tank from smelling and it has enzymes that aid the process.

[Greg A]

Black tank is a mini septic tank and as Glen says, depends on bacteria to work properly. Many overclean/sterilize there black tanks and defeat the operation. All I’ve ever done is dump black tank and add a deodorizer with about 1 gallon water after dump.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

There are different views on drinking water from streams and from trailer water systems. I don't think many people get sick drinking their trailer water, but I think it might be an eye opener if people saw what they were drinking under a microscope. Though I worked in a Biochemistry and looked after the entire lab water supply, I also consulted with our Microbiology head technologist on the risks of drinking trailer water before preparing a response to this question on a previous thread.
I appreciated Celcius232's post here and I would love to here his response to my thoughts on this topic. He has experience with drinking water systems, which I do not have.

I am attaching a PDF for your consideration. It is one point of view and my experiences may explain why I take this position.

Bob K

Thanks Bob for your info. I have almost 30 years as a licensed water operator and experience as a lab tech as well and would like to point out that there is a big difference between lab grade water and drinking water. There are many things that are in water that are a problem for the lab but will not be a problem for human consumption (both mineral and biological). In the drinking water world we worry most about pathogens(organisms that can make us sick). These pathogens can be masked or provided a place to hide by other growth. Typically though pathogens need a mode of transportation to get there in the first place...unlike other organisms it doesn't just happen(most pathogens are related to feces of warm blooded animals which should not be common in well water). Simply doing the recommended shock disinfection put in the manual by ETI on at least a yearly basis and maybe more often where it is warm year round should be enough to keep this growth to a minimum. If your trailer sits for any length of time, especially in hot climates, either filling your tank with municipal water that you KNOW has a chlorine residual or adding a tablespoon or so of Clorox bleach(no flavorings or thickeners or other additives) can help to keep your water "fresh". Many people state that they use water jugs instead. Do you treat those jugs the same way?

Hooking up to a water source in a campground or filling your tank(or jugs) should always be done with caution. If the water pressure is low or swings wildly, if the campground facilities are poorly cared for, if the water is cloudy(not just bubbles that fizz out in a minute or so) or funny colored, I would be suspect and find somewhere else to fill up. A well cared for campground with its own water supply or one that is on municipal water should be a good bet for good water.

Drinking surface water, unless it has been well treated by professionals and/or put through an appropriate filter system, is another story and I recommend against it strongly. Chlorine and the standard household filters will NOT remove all the contaminants that COULD be there.

Just a thought for the day...campgrounds are required to test for indicators of pathogens (coliform) at least quarterly and often monthly....if your house has its own well (and you say it is the best tasting water around) when was the last time you had it tested.....

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

Hey Dee:

I am taking your advice right now. 3.5 oz in 28 gallons of fresh.

Does it make sense to run that thru the black tank, or gray, and let it sit for an hour or so after disinfecting the fresh? We really only use ours for pee and never more than a little bit.

I would think that would give the black tank a little clean on the way out. I am thinking it would kill any bacteria.

Does it make sense to increase the concentration of bleach in the black tank?


Thanks for your help.

I would not add any more chlorine that is plenty. It should not hurt to run some of the chlorinated water into both grey and black tanks to freshen them up a bit. This will not hurt future "treatment" in the tanks by the chemicals we add and the bacteria we add when we use it...just make sure they get flushed of the chlorine water.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by Greg A

Black tank is a mini septic tank and as Glen says, depends on bacteria to work properly. Many overclean/sterilize there black tanks and defeat the operation. All I’ve ever done is dump black tank and add a deodorizer with about 1 gallon water after dump.

Septic tanks only work when they are full of liquid and our tanks are somewhat the same. Don't worry about killing the bacteria by adding chlorine once in a while(not all the time) you reinnoculate the tank the first time you go #2 in it anyway. You have heard about pro biotics right

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

Don't worry about killing the bacteria by adding chlorine once in a while(not all the time)

Given that, what is achieved by adding chlorine to the black tank?

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Given that, what is achieved by adding chlorine to the black tank?

Sometimes we will get a buildup of solids and time will promote the bacteria to get growing in our black tank so getting rid of them can really help. It will kill the bacteria but we all have more in our guts. That is why your septic tank doesn't need additives...you are naturally adding them all the time. Septic tanks only really need additives if we are putting too much stuff that doesn't really belong down the drain anyway. The bacteria in a black tank can change to ones that cause odors as the gunk builds up in the corners(it goes septic). The difference between our tanks and a septic tank is that a septic tank works by being septic or anaerobic(no oxygen) and that will actually break down the solids, if that happens in our tanks we will get stink big time. The bacteria in our tanks are not usually there long enough to really do anything anyway and would need a source of oxygen to work properly(which would be another type of stink)...so if you want to put a fish tank bubbler in your black tank...have at it! You still don't hold the black tank long enough to get any serious amount of breakdown with this method anyway. The enzymes we add are mostly there to liquify the solids and bind up with compounds that cause odors not necessarily to promote biologic growth. Remember that biologic growth that breaks sewage down causes stink whether it is aerobic or anaerobic.

[gbaglo]

I think I understand. Had an antibiotic once that killed off good bacteria and the bad took over. Had to take another antibiotic to kill everything and start over.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I think I understand. Had an antibiotic once that killed off good bacteria and the bad took over. Had to take another antibiotic to kill everything and start over.

Yeah...kinda. In the case of our black and grey tanks active bacteria=stink. Some bacteria just hanging out for a few days=not so much stink.
Broad spectrum antibiotics can really send the bacteria that help our bodies work for quite a loop. They are finding out more and more about the biome of our bodies and how much we need them to survive and live well. Not just in our gut but even on our skin....microbiology of our bodies could really gross some people out! Most people have no idea! I wonder what detrimental effects all the covid use of disinfectant and sanitizer is having on this?

[Bobbito]

Thanks for your input, Ian. I would love to spend time listening to your experiences from your career. As I said, my experience is on highly purified water production. I still think that the lessons I learned in the hospital lab apply in some ways to our trailers. What astonished me was how little nutrient there was in the lab water tubing (Type 1 water) and yet the bacteria took hold over a few months of down time and created a biofilm that couldn’t be removed even by the water specialists (2 companies were unsuccessful: Millipore and Culligan) with many different sanitizing chemicals and procedures. If a biofilm can develop in that high quality system on standing for a few months, it surely could happen if a trailer were left without treatment for a few months and especially if a trailer was left a couple of years without treatment. I sampled water for culturing from about half a dozen points in our system. I know that our lab bacteria counts in colony forming units/mL went over 1000 on several occasions, and I believe this exceeds the acceptable limits for drinking water. Correct me if I’m wrong, but on Googling limits I found a reference to 500 cfu/mL for non-pathogenic bacteria and far less for coliform bacteria. Despite the high counts, the water didn’t appear cloudy and as I never tasted it I can’t say if it would have been detectable.

I too read that high levels of non-pathogens can provide the nutrients for pathogens to grow, possible introduced by contaminated campsite water systems or hoses. Do you have any personal experience or knowledge about pathogens piggy backing on non-pathogen blooms?


Our trailer sits for over 5 months in storage with the water tank not completely empty. And though I blow out the tubing with compressed air, there is bound to be moisture there as well. I would love to see a study done with microbe counts on RV water systems post sanitizing. I couldn’t find any relatable study on the Internet. I wonder if you know of any such studies and could share a link.

Regarding your comment on the residual chlorine in municipal water keeping your trailer water tank fresh, I question whether that is the case. We were taught that the chlorine in our labs much stronger disinfecting solutions dissipates on exposure to air and light, which is why our SOP required us to make up fresh solution each day for each work bench. This was the standard for all labs in the Fraser Health Region. Of course, though I have read this in various science journals, it is possible that the dissipation isn’t really that significant and we were being over cautious. Any thoughts on that?


To repeat my earlier comments, after discussing this with a friend who supervised the hospital Microbiology lab, I don’t think anyone need worry about getting ill from drinking the trailer water unless they have a poor immune response or have a trailer that sat untreated for a long time. For me, there is still the gross-out factor from my experiences. I am fortunate we have room in our truck for the two 5 gal water jugs we normally bring with us. One always sits in our Escape 21’s kitchen area by the door and with a hand pump on it. And I either get the jugs from a purified water store or else sterilize an older one (that has been standing air-dried inside) with bleach before reusing. Yes I am anal retentive!

Bob K

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Dee Lirious

I would question the advisability of letting municipal water sterilize the water system. To the best of my knowledge, municipal water is sterilized at source, but, by the time it reaches the end user it is clean, but not a sterilizing agent its self. Fill your tank with pristine water, then run it through the tap with a contaminated aerator and viola, you are drinking contaminated water. You need to put chlorine in the tank, run all outlets to ensure that chlorinated water is in the line, and that the tank is completely full again, including the hot water tank. Then it has to sit for an hour or so, and then best to completely flush again. A process for sure. I used to own an off grid hunting lodge using lake water and because it was a commercial property, the water was tested by the government every month and I had to submit several samples from different locations, Like lodge kitchen, cabin 1 bathroom, cabin 5 kitchen. Granted an RV is much easier but the fundamentals are the same, don't do right and you might as well not bother doing it all. Not to mention some things like the infamous "beaver fever" are not treatable, they need special filtration. So do not be complacent about the water system. Just my experience for what its worth

With all due respect, I disagree. Municipal water is still chlorinated when it reaches the tap (public providers, while you may not be aware of it, constantly flush lines and check for chlorine residuals.). If it sits in a vacant home’s service line for a long time then chlorine can dissipate. The utility has no control over water quality after it passes through a customer’s meter. I did not spend 22 years working with public water providers without learning about water treatment. The aerator in a faucet will rapidly dry out if not used, killing bacteria it may hold. I’m not talking about the fresh water tank here, because it, if not sterilized, can certainly be a Petrie dish for bacterial growth. But connecting to a “city” water connection and flushing the trailer’s internal plumbing for a few seconds with chlorinated water, letting it sit for a few moments, and then flushing for a few seconds more will allow one to drink the water safely. And yes, filling the fresh water tank with city water and then draining it will NOT adequately sterilize the tank. Many people purchase a specific brand of bottled water for taste consistency. I am one, and use it for making coffee and drinking because I like my water cold. Unless I plan on being off grid, I do not put water in the “fresh” water tank. Only then do I bother to sanitize, and do not do so if I expect to have hook-ups.

[UncleTim]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

And yes, filling the fresh water tank with city water and then draining it will NOT adequately sterilize the tank. Many people purchase a specific brand of bottled water for taste consistency. I am one, and use it for making coffee and drinking because I like my water cold. Unless I plan on being off grid, I do not put water in the “fresh” water tank. Only then do I bother to sanitize, and do not do so if I expect to have hook-ups.

Help me out here guys, I am trying to understand everything you heavyweights are talking about.

Is your strategy for usable water based on living and camping in the south, where presumably cold water might be difficult to maintain? We try to keep ours from freezing.

I am wondering if the strategy changes with latitude or some other factor.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

Help me out here guys, I am trying to understand everything you heavyweights are talking about.

Is your strategy for usable water based on living and camping in the south, where presumably cold water might be difficult to maintain? We try to keep ours from freezing.

I am wondering if the strategy changes with latitude or some other factor.

Water rarely freezes in Florida. Sometimes it will start to freeze in my trailer’s refrigerator. I drink three types of water. 1) straight water, 2) water flavored with malted barley and hops then fermented with yeast, and 3) water flavored with malted barley, fermented, and then distilled (AKA, Scotch whiskey, preferably the single malt rather than blends.

But even when I migrate north in the summer months, my preference for straight water is cold, and that which comes out of the fresh water tank typically doesn’t qualify as cold.

[DC Boyd]

Yes we drink the water. All of ours comes from our water well. We add the Camco water conditioner. Some how we don’t trust municipal water systems.

Always pour campground water into a white bucket. If there is any discoloration use with caution. City systems water goes through piping that is usually decades old. I personally never trust water their water. After all when ever there is a problem boil alerts are issued. Lol

[the5reeds]

I used to monkey around with inline filters, but gave that up and started using a travel Berkey filter system (1.5g). I nest it and store it in the closet or under the bed when traveling. I fill a couple of jugs of water to use. I really don't worry about drinking water any more.

[Bobbito]

Carl, it's good to have your perspective on this, but I question your advice "But connecting to a “city” water connection and flushing the trailer’s internal plumbing for a few seconds with chlorinated water, letting it sit for a few moments, and then flushing for a few seconds more will allow one to drink the water safely." Yes, if you are rushing the water from a hose hookup through to your glass for a drink. No, if you store the water in your water tank.
The CDC states:
"A free chlorine level of 0.5 mg/L of free chlorine will be enough residual to maintain the quality of water through the distribution network, but is most likely not adequate to maintain the quality of the water when this water is stored in the home in a bucket or jerry can for 24 hours."

Also, I don't feel this addresses what can happen if a biofilm gets hold in your plumbing. I believe this is only a concern when systems lie idle and moist for long periods of time or when there is a dead leg in a plumbing system. I think that the fresh water tank sitting idle for many months could develop a biofilm and also tubing that sits with water in it for a very long time are at risk. If you purchased an Escape that had residual water in its tank and plumbing, how would you approach that?

Another factor with fresh water tanks not surrounded by spray foam is that the light can penetrate the tank wall and could neutralize the hypochlorite faster.

Regarding UncleTim's question about whether latitude factors in, it does. Our lab cultured the water samples in incubators to ensure each bacteria formed a colony. The warmer your water the more likely there is to be bacterial and algal growth. I live near Vancouver, B.C., where winter temperatures often stay above freezing for weeks and we golf pretty well year round, so I have more concerns about bacterial growth than someone from the BC Interior or our prairie provinces. With our trailer covered for the winter, I can't easily do a sanitizing while in storage for 5+ months, but then I don't drink that water.

But if drinking RV water was a big risk you would be hearing a lot more about it. There are rare reports of Legionaires disease, but I think the risks aren't any more than drinking from a mountain stream. Probably less, because then you risk other organisms. Most of what is in our trailer water isn't going to make us sick if we have a healthy immune system. But I remain grossed out from years of battling bacterial growth in high quality water and pack my own drinking water.

Bob K

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

Carl, it's good to have your perspective on this, but I question your advice "But connecting to a “city” water connection and flushing the trailer’s internal plumbing for a few seconds with chlorinated water, letting it sit for a few moments, and then flushing for a few seconds more will allow one to drink the water safely." Yes, if you are rushing the water from a hose hookup through to your glass for a drink. No, if you store the water in your water tank.
The CDC states:
"A free chlorine level of 0.5 mg/L of free chlorine will be enough residual to maintain the quality of water through the distribution network, but is most likely not adequate to maintain the quality of the water when this water is stored in the home in a bucket or jerry can for 24 hours."

Also, I don't feel this addresses what can happen if a biofilm gets hold in your plumbing. I believe this is only a concern when systems lie idle and moist for long periods of time or when there is a dead leg in a plumbing system. I think that the fresh water tank sitting idle for many months could develop a biofilm and also tubing that sits with water in it for a very long time are at risk. If you purchased an Escape that had residual water in its tank and plumbing, how would you approach that?

Another factor with fresh water tanks not surrounded by spray foam is that the light can penetrate the tank wall and could neutralize the hypochlorite faster.

Regarding UncleTim's question about whether latitude factors in, it does. Our lab cultured the water samples in incubators to ensure each bacteria formed a colony. The warmer your water the more likely there is to be bacterial and algal growth. I live near Vancouver, B.C., where winter temperatures often stay above freezing for weeks and we golf pretty well year round, so I have more concerns about bacterial growth than someone from the BC Interior or our prairie provinces. With our trailer covered for the winter, I can't easily do a sanitizing while in storage for 5+ months, but then I don't drink that water.

But if drinking RV water was a big risk you would be hearing a lot more about it. There are rare reports of Legionaires disease, but I think the risks aren't any more than drinking from a mountain stream. Probably less, because then you risk other organisms. Most of what is in our trailer water isn't going to make us sick if we have a healthy immune system. But I remain grossed out from years of battling bacterial growth in high quality water and pack my own drinking water.

Bob K

Bob,

I have PM’d you with a very basic explanation. I have followed this practice for over 40 years and have never gotten sick. And yes, avoid mountain streams, due to Giardia and Cryptosporidium. Both are health threats. Remember, if you are introducing fresh water from a utility into your trailer, it hasn’t sat in a bucket overnight. If there weren’t chlorine residuals in water, the court system wouldn’t be able to handle all the lawsuits that would occur.

But anyone who wishes to constantly sanitize there water system because they are concerned it may be contaminated, I say do what makes you feel safe. I do if I’m going to fill the fresh water tank, but if I am forced to fill it because I find myself heading to an off grid location, then I drink bottled water exclusively and only use the unsanitized tank for toilet flushing.