GVWR reduced?

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

don't forget the tongue weight in your GWR computation.

But, I thought the axles on my 2014 21' were rated at 3000 or 3500 lbs each, with two of them you could in theory have 7000 lbs on them.... in 2014, the 21 was rated at 4500 lbs GWR, but considering the build of the trailer, I've treated that as more of a suggestion than a hard limitation

Didn't those Escapes have a 3 inch frame back then, instead of the current 4 inch frame? Or was that only the Escape 19 and smaller?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Didn't those Escapes have a 3 inch frame back then, instead of the current 4 inch frame? Or was that only the Escape 19 and smaller?

afaik, the 21 was always 4", early 19s were 3". I don't know what year the 19 upgraded.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

I.... Which brings us back to the days where people would say you need a tow vehicle capable of hauling 20%+ more than the trailers GVRW....

Having experienced towing mishaps, I am *VERY* happy my tow vehicle is overrated for my trailer. Scariest one was the towball coming out of the ball mount at ~60MPH on a rough narrow road near the Utah Arizona border, and having the trailer whip back and forth.... if I'd been towing it with something like a Highlander, I quite likely could have flipped the car and rolled into the sagebrush. My F250 was stable enough I was able to grab teh trailer brake manual overload, and gradually brake the rig to a stop on the narrow gravel shoulder, and go get another ball mount with 2" ball from an OReilly about 45 minutes away, 2 hours later, we were back on the road, no damage except a few broken dishes.

[Oscar2]

Originally Posted by joebuoy

I placed a deposit for an E19 this April and signed the build sheet around the first of May. At that time the E19 web page and all my build sheet configurations showed a 5000 GVWR. Our trailer went into production on July 18th.

I saw this thread and asked about the GVWR reduction and impact to my E19 trailer. I exchanged emails with ETI over a couple weeks.

ETI replied my trailer would have the new 4400 GVWR. I was not a happy camper. I asked what caused the lowering of the GVWR. ETI stated there was no change in the production process, no change to the frame and no change to the axles.

I got this response for the reason from ETI management "The GVWR for the E19 has been reduced (for new build trailers) from 5000 lbs to 4400 lbs. This is to allow customers with tow vehicles with a smaller than 5000 lbs towing capacity to tow this unit. They have to be able to tow 4400 lbs safely".

I started complaining about changing the GVWR on my trailer after I had signed the build sheet and that I had received no communication from ETI about the reduction. If I had know in April about the GVWR reduction, I might have cancelled my order. I requested/demanded that my trailer be rated at 5000 GVWR.

Yesterday ETI agreed to change the tags/labels on my recently completed trailer to reflect a 5000 GVWR. I have asked for photo confirmation.

It seems ETI overlooked (that's how I interpreted the phone call) trailers with signed build sheets before the GVWR reduction was on the web pages and had trailers that were in production or about to start production.

We have a 19 in production with a timeline close to yours. Would you mind saying who you talked with at ETI? We have emailed our concerns twice with no response. The gvwr of 5000 was a selling point for us.

[joebuoy]

Originally Posted by Oscar2

We have a 19 in production with a timeline close to yours. Would you mind saying who you talked with at ETI? We have emailed our concerns twice with no response. The gvwr of 5000 was a selling point for us.

I placed a deposit on April 24, 2023. The build sheet process started on 5/2 and signed the build sheet on 5/5. Our trailer went into production on 7/11.

I worked through our configuration specialist. We exchanged several emails over a couple weeks. I requested a meeting to discuss the GVWR. I got a call from Samuel and the matter was resolved to our satisfaction. The tag/label was changed to 5000 pounds (2268 kg).

I requested a photo of the new tag, which I received today.

The 5000 GVWR was a huge selling point. I probably would not purchased an E19 now with a 4400 GVWR. If during the build sheet process, ETI had told me the GVWR was lowering to 4400, I probably would have canceled our order.

ETI has been very responsive to my emails, questions and phone calls.

[brroberts]

Another way to make money, what if ETI starts offering the upgraded 5000lbs sticker as an “upgrade” with an up charge? Even more personalization!

[rbryan4]

If Escape isn't changing anything but the sticker, and their rationale is so that owners of lighter vehicles can tow it, that's (how do I say this tactfully) insane. A sticker is just a sticker.

On the other hand, are they saying by lowering the rating that their original calculations were incorrect? Someone at ETI who actually understands GVWR needs to clarify for prospective owners.

[hondasaurus]

Most smaller vehicle can tow up to 3500#. So 4400# is quite a jump...
Other categorize of vehicle will tow up to 5000# or higher.

We are gone for a trip of around 10 week and with 1/3 of water and loaded we are at 4200#.

ETI explication is very discutable if they in fact did not change anything witch I doubt,

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by joebuoy

I placed a deposit on April 24, 2023. The build sheet process started on 5/2 and signed the build sheet on 5/5. Our trailer went into production on 7/11.

I worked through our configuration specialist. We exchanged several emails over a couple weeks. I requested a meeting to discuss the GVWR. I got a call from Samuel and the matter was resolved to our satisfaction. The tag/label was changed to 5000 pounds (2268 kg).

I requested a photo of the new tag, which I received today.

The 5000 GVWR was a huge selling point. I probably would not purchased an E19 now with a 4400 GVWR. If during the build sheet process, ETI had told me the GVWR was lowering to 4400, I probably would have canceled our order.

ETI has been very responsive to my emails, questions and phone calls.

The day I signed my build sheet I printed out all of the standard features and specifications for my trailer, since I was signing a contract for the standard features and specifications in effect on that date. Anyone who already had a signed build sheet has every right to ask to get the trailer as specked on the date the build sheet was signed.

[sparkyradar]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

As I posted on Facebook.

Maybe since the GVWR determines what vehicles can legally tow

Uhm, that's not quite how it works...

If your tow-vehicle is rated to tow 5,000 pounds, you can put *anything* you want behind you so long as you don't exceed that 5,000lbs, nor exeed the Gross Combined Weight Rating (which is under your control, when you load your vehicle). The ~rating~ of the junk youi put behind is immaterial, insofar as the tow-vehicle is concerned.

A reduction in the Escape trailer Rating helps no-one.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by sparkyradar

A reduction in the Escape trailer Rating helps no-one.

When a dealer knowingly sells you a trailer that has a GVWR that exceeds the capabilities of your tow vehicle they assume some liability. Since, Escape sells direct to the consumer, they assume some liability if they sell a trailer to a consumer knowing the trailer exceeds or could exceed the tow rating of the vehicle. Karl stated things to that effect in his videos. If you buy a trailer with a lower GVWR and 'overload' it (even if it really doesn't overload it) then the liability falls on you. You have to remember that most of the trailers Escape sells are in the litigious United States, not, in Canada.

RV Dealer sued for false claims

Big LAWSUIT WIN for RVer!

[occer]

My understanding of the law is;
Whomever connects the trailer has liability and the driver has ultimate liability .

When we received our trailer the driver looked to make sure there was an electric hook up and a switch inside to control the brakes. He did not check it look at anything else.

He did not help to hook the trailer to my vehicle. If Escape is doing it out of liability issues that’s not on them it is on the lawyers.

[TTMartin]

My understanding of the law is in the United States you can sue anyone for anything at anytime.

GETTING SUED: IS IT TRUE THAT YOU CAN BE SUED FOR ANYTHING?

[occer]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

My understanding of the law is in the United States you can sue anyone for anything at anytime.

GETTING SUED: IS IT TRUE THAT YOU CAN BE SUED FOR ANYTHING?

How true, let’s just settle out of court, just sent me 10 dollar and I won’t sue you.

[Selkirk]

Assuming that truly nothing has changed except for the sticker and associated paperwork, then I agree that ETI could have taken a more diplomatic approach to roll out the change.

They still could have derated the GVWR on the "base" E19, but kept original 5000lb rating available as an optional package for a nominal price. That gives potential customers the best of both worlds....and it would not cost ETI a penny.

Like I mentioned prior....if ETI really wanted to make the 19 more appealing to owners of less capable TV's, they should endeavor to create a a true lightweight version. I think a good target would be to remove 500lbs (or more) of dry weight out of a typically configured trailer.

I bet that would be more than feasible with some of the improvements that Karl had hinted in the recent past that were in the works.

[MVA]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Having experienced towing mishaps, I am *VERY* happy my tow vehicle is overrated for my trailer. Scariest one was the towball coming out of the ball mount at ~60MPH on a rough narrow road near the Utah Arizona border, and having the trailer whip back and forth.... if I'd been towing it with something like a Highlander, I quite likely could have flipped the car and rolled into the sagebrush. My F250 was stable enough I was able to grab teh trailer brake manual overload, and gradually brake the rig to a stop on the narrow gravel shoulder, and go get another ball mount with 2" ball from an OReilly about 45 minutes away, 2 hours later, we were back on the road, no damage except a few broken dishes.

John,

From a "lessons learned", what failed in your circumstance? Did the hitch pin fail or did the pin clip fall off allowing the pin to move sideways and not hold the draw bar in place?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by MVA

John,

From a "lessons learned", what failed in your circumstance? Did the hitch pin fail or did the pin clip fall off allowing the pin to move sideways and not hold the draw bar in place?

the nut on the towball worked loose, suggesting it was insufficiently torqued. the ball had apparently been loose for awhile and hammered the threads smooth, stripping the nut completely off. 1000s and 1000s of miles of bad roads.

I've since got a bigger 3/4" breaker bar with 6 point 1.5" socket, and use my 220 lb body on the end of the breaker bar, with the ball mount installed rotated 90 degrees to approximate the 250 foot pounds specified for a class III 2" ball and 1" shank, and the new ball+mount hasn't come loose yet.

[MVA]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

the nut on the towball worked loose, suggesting it was insufficiently torqued. the ball had apparently been loose for awhile and hammered the threads smooth, stripping the nut completely off. 1000s and 1000s of miles of bad roads.

I've since got a bigger 3/4" breaker bar with 6 point 1.5" socket, and use my 220 lb body on the end of the breaker bar, with the ball mount installed rotated 90 degrees to approximate the 250 foot pounds specified for a class III 2" ball and 1" shank, and the new ball+mount hasn't come loose yet.

Thanks for the clarification. Always good to learn what can go wrong and what to watch for.

[John in Santa Cruz]

bonus fun, a 1.25" shank class IV ball requires 450 ft lbs. I have NO idea how I'd tighten one of those. I do remember a friend having a old motorcycle fork tube in his shop that he used as a breaker bar extender for those really really tough things, and he managed to bend his 3/4" breaker bar using it.

[brroberts]

450lbs. I bought a used 3/4” torque wrench good to 600lbs, and put a long cheater pipe on the wrench handle. Bingo 450 ft lbs torque.