Tips on dry camping - Page 2 - Escape Trailer Owners Community
Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×

Go Back   Escape Trailer Owners Community > Escape Me | General Topics > General Escape
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-10-2017, 03:02 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 13,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Those end up in a dumpster too, and they are biodegradable.
WAG bags are one of the products of Cleanwaste. I can find no claim anywhere in their website of biodegradability, except in the graphic on the front of the product package. What leads you to believe that these are actually biodegradable?

I suspect that this was a claim which could not be supported, and so has been removed by the manufacturer from their materials, although retailers and others may still claim biodegradability. Even bags (for holding anything) which legitimately meet standards to be called "biodegradable" are unlikely to break down effectively in landfill; conditions in a landfill are not like a compost pile.

I sent this query to Cleanwaste; the reply (if there is one) should be interesting.
Quote:
Are WAG bags - or your other products - biodegradable or compostable? If so, what standard do they meet?
__________________

Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 03:13 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Milpitas, California
Trailer: 2017 19'
Posts: 347
As a side note I believe the WAG bag is allowed (and recommended?) for locations that requires you to pack out all your trash including human waste. For example the White Rim trail and the Rubicon trail.. although for those locations they never really mention what you are supposed to do with those bags afterward..
__________________

caddoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 03:17 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
gbaglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 16,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Better tell that to all those babies pooping in their diapers...all the dogs pooping in the campgrounds...all those kitties pooping in the litter boxes...and our depends...
Cats and dogs have been known to eat their own feces.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
gbaglo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 03:33 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
thoer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 4,225
This has reminded me of the "good old days" on the Illinois River in Peoria when Chicago used to dump raw sewage directly into the river... more than just dead fish used to be floating on downstream... sure gave meaning to the "we can't all live upstream" quote.
__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
thoer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 04:58 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 343
Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas, and they developed the bags – and the “Pooh Powder” that fills them – to be functional and easily biodegradable.

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.

Each bag comes in a plastic packet that contains the funnel-shaped “WAG bag” itself, an opaque plastic bag for disposal, toilet paper and a hand sanitizing wipe. In the WAG bag is a quantity of Pooh Powder.

When waste comes in contact with it, the powder gels the liquid waste, encapsulates the solid waste, neutralizes the odors and begins the decay process. Pooh Powder is a mix of non-toxic, polymer-based absorbent similar to that in disposable diapers, an organic decay catalyst and the odor neutralizer – custom-engineered for the purpose by Phillips Environmental Products. ..."
thiggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 06:10 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
sunrisetrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Nanaimo Vancouver Island, British Columbia
Trailer: 2015 17b "Shelly"
Posts: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Better tell that to all those babies pooping in their diapers...all the dogs pooping in the campgrounds...all those kitties pooping in the litter boxes...and our depends...
Please note my previous answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker View Post
Disposable diapers where meant to have the solids removed and flushed down the toilet. Ask anyone who works at a wast disposal site (AKA garbage dump) what they think of disposable diapers.
Also two wrongs don't make a right.
My wife and I do our best to keep things out of land fills and recycle as much as we can. We need to look after this planet not fill it up dumpsters with more and more garbage and that includes raw sewage, no matter it's source or species.

Ok I'll get off my soapbox now.
__________________
Like a lot of fellows, I have a furniture problem. My chest has fallen into my drawers
"Billy Casper"
sunrisetrucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 06:10 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Naples, New York
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 947
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas, and they developed the bags – and the “Pooh Powder” that fills them – to be functional and easily biodegradable.

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.

Each bag comes in a plastic packet that contains the funnel-shaped “WAG bag” itself, an opaque plastic bag for disposal, toilet paper and a hand sanitizing wipe. In the WAG bag is a quantity of Pooh Powder.

When waste comes in contact with it, the powder gels the liquid waste, encapsulates the solid waste, neutralizes the odors and begins the decay process. Pooh Powder is a mix of non-toxic, polymer-based absorbent similar to that in disposable diapers, an organic decay catalyst and the odor neutralizer – custom-engineered for the purpose by Phillips Environmental Products. ..."

very good info.
NEWYORKHILLBILLY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 06:43 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North of Danbury, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2018 Escape 21C
Posts: 3,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by escape artist View Post
Hi: steve dunham... Your avatar states you don't have a trailer. Your "Hand sanitizer in our trailers bathroom and kitchen" must be another of that pesky Wash. DC fake news!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie
I should have known that someone as observant as you would spot my error / deception. Yes I am part of the fake news conspiracy.
The truth is I never wash my hands , it's just a waste of time , cause they just get dirty again !!
steve dunham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 08:06 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 13,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by caddoster View Post
As a side note I believe the WAG bag is allowed (and recommended?) for locations that requires you to pack out all your trash including human waste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas...

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.
..."
Right - the bags exist to get waste out of areas lacking sewage facilities, to avoid local pollution. This makes sense for campers in sensitive remote areas, or in military or emergency response situations. That doesn't describe camping in campgrounds.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 08:15 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
gbaglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 16,123
Usually, if there is a dumpster, there is also a proper disposal facility.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
gbaglo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 09:27 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
thoer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 4,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Right - the bags exist to get waste out of areas lacking sewage facilities, to avoid local pollution. This makes sense for campers in sensitive remote areas, or in military or emergency response situations. That doesn't describe camping in campgrounds.
Exactly what I was thinking as I have read this discussion.
__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
thoer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2017, 08:20 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 13,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
I sent this query to Cleanwaste; the reply (if there is one) should be interesting.
Quote:
Are WAG bags - or your other products - biodegradable or compostable? If so, what standard do they meet?
The initial reply didn't help much:
Quote:
Yes, all of our bags will break down in the landfill and have a degradation catalyst in them. What do you mean by "What standard do they meet"?
So I asked:
Quote:
Products which claim to biodegrade or compost are commonly assessed by organizations such as the Biodegradable Products Institute (BPI), following the standards of those organizations or standards organizations such as ASTM International. I was wondering if you had your product tested or certified according to any of these standards.

What degradation catalyst is used?
And the answer was:
Quote:
We do not ever claim that our products are biodegradable because there are states that will not allow us to do that when associated with plastics. Our bags do contain a starch derivative in the bag structure itself that acts as a decay catalyst and aids in the breakdown process.

No, we have not had our products tested with either of the organizations you mentioned.
I thanked them for the information, and noted:
Quote:
Although the text "biodegradable" does not appear in your website, it does appear on the WAG Bag packaging, and so it shouldn't be surprising that online retailers (such as REI Co-op, Amazon.com, and Amazon.ca) describe them as biodegradable.
(The usual pleasantries have been omitted from the quoted message content.)

So, the answer is that there is some attempt to make the plastic WAG bags degrade, but it is not acceptable by current standards, and they haven't even tried to make the product meet those standards.

It is entirely possible that most (perhaps nearly all) the WAG Bags ever placed in landfills are still there, holding urine and feces in storage for later generations. The alternative is that the bag breaks down enough to put massive numbers of tiny but destructive petroleum-based polymer particles (which themselves will not break down) into ground water and waterways.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 01:21 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
sunrisetrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Nanaimo Vancouver Island, British Columbia
Trailer: 2015 17b "Shelly"
Posts: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
The initial reply didn't help much:

So I asked:

And the answer was:

I thanked them for the information, and noted:

(The usual pleasantries have been omitted from the quoted message content.)

So, the answer is that there is some attempt to make the plastic WAG bags degrade, but it is not acceptable by current standards, and they haven't even tried to make the product meet those standards.

It is entirely possible that most (perhaps nearly all) the WAG Bags ever placed in landfills are still there, holding urine and feces in storage for later generations. The alternative is that the bag breaks down enough to put massive numbers of tiny but destructive petroleum-based polymer particles (which themselves will not break down) into ground water and waterways.
That's very interesting Brian
Thank you for your research and input.
__________________
Like a lot of fellows, I have a furniture problem. My chest has fallen into my drawers
"Billy Casper"
sunrisetrucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 01:26 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
gbaglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 16,123
From: What’s the Difference? – Compostable vs. Biodegradable vs. Recyclable | Bridge-Gate Alliance Group


The main difference between biodegradable and compostable is the latter breaks down into “humus,” which provides valuable nutrients to the soil. Biodegradable products just return to nature, disintegrating or disappearing completely. This disintegration could take a week or years – another difference with compostable, where items must break down in a “timely” fashion i.e., one-to-four months. (The FTC states biodegradable items have “reasonably short period of time” to break down, which hasn’t been clarified.)
Finally, compostable items must completely break down and not release any metals or toxins into the compost. Biodegradable products can leave metal residue in their return to nature.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
gbaglo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 11:09 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 13,909
A good, concise description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
The main difference between biodegradable and compostable is the latter breaks down into “humus,” which provides valuable nutrients to the soil. Biodegradable products just return to nature, disintegrating or disappearing completely. This disintegration could take a week or years – another difference with compostable, where items must break down in a “timely” fashion i.e., one-to-four months. (The FTC states biodegradable items have “reasonably short period of time” to break down, which hasn’t been clarified.)
Finally, compostable items must completely break down and not release any metals or toxins into the compost. Biodegradable products can leave metal residue in their return to nature.
... and by those definitions, not only are WAG Bags far from compostable, they're not even biodegradable. The starch added to the plastic (in an attempt to make it biodegradable) also keeps the plastic from being recyclable, even if someone came up with a process to do it.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 11:15 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
gbaglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 16,123
No problem.
Just toss them in a dumpster, or the Grand Canyon.
__________________

__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
gbaglo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Escape Trailer Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.
×