Electrical troubleshooting

[ksitte]

Looking for help from you experienced electrical gurus.


Yesterday, when I plugged our 2019 Escape 19 into the garage AC outlet, the garage GFI immediately shut off the power to the outlet. I've used that outlet for years with no problem. In fact, I even replaced the GFI a few months back, just in case, since they do wear out, I'm told.



After resetting the GFI and doing the normal troubleshooting, I turned off all Escape circuit breakers and, one by one, turned them back on. The GFI activated when I turned the converter circuit breaker on. Seemed simple enough, I thought: get a new converter.



This morning, when I tried the same thing, the GFI does NOT trip the circuit. The GFI remained functioning throughout the cycling of all the Escape circuit breakers. Hmm, thought I, assuming yesterday's incident was merely a spring weather hiccup. However, when turning on other appliances in the Escape, I now have no air conditioner and the refrigerator will only function on gas, not AC.


Does the fact that the aircon and the refer will not function confirm the bad converter? Or should I be looking elsewhere? There are no loose wires upon initial inspection of the wiring under the bench. Again, should I look elsewhere?



Also, the current converter in the WFCO-8955PEC. In our previous 19, the converter was in a separate box mounted on top of the distribution panel. Now, everything is contained within the brown plastic enclosure which I have not yet removed.



I'm not in the mood for replacing the entire distribution panel, only the converter. Is this a doable task for an average DIYer? We are not planning to change to LI batteries. I notice many of the replacements promote the converters' abilities to handle LI batteries. I've been exploring the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4655 MBA as the replacement, if needed.


Any thoughts out there?


Klaus

[SRS]

Originally Posted by ksitte

Looking for help from you experienced electrical gurus.


Yesterday, when I plugged our 2019 Escape 19 into the garage AC outlet, the garage GFI immediately shut off the power to the outlet. I've used that outlet for years with no problem. In fact, I even replaced the GFI a few months back, just in case, since they do wear out, I'm told.



After resetting the GFI and doing the normal troubleshooting, I turned off all Escape circuit breakers and, one by one, turned them back on. The GFI activated when I turned the converter circuit breaker on. Seemed simple enough, I thought: get a new converter.



This morning, when I tried the same thing, the GFI does NOT trip the circuit. The GFI remained functioning throughout the cycling of all the Escape circuit breakers. Hmm, thought I, assuming yesterday's incident was merely a spring weather hiccup. However, when turning on other appliances in the Escape, I now have no air conditioner and the refrigerator will only function on gas, not AC.


Does the fact that the aircon and the refer will not function confirm the bad converter? Or should I be looking elsewhere? There are no loose wires upon initial inspection of the wiring under the bench. Again, should I look elsewhere?



Also, the current converter in the WFCO-8955PEC. In our previous 19, the converter was in a separate box mounted on top of the distribution panel. Now, everything is contained within the brown plastic enclosure which I have not yet removed.



I'm not in the mood for replacing the entire distribution panel, only the converter. Is this a doable task for an average DIYer? We are not planning to change to LI batteries. I notice many of the replacements promote the converters' abilities to handle LI batteries. I've been exploring the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4655 MBA as the replacement, if needed.


Any thoughts out there?


Klaus

Just a thought here, but do you have an inverter and if so did you check the two breakers associated with it? They're in a separate box near the power center.

[ksitte]

Ah, the plot thickens. Yes, I do have an inverter as well. After reading your note, I tested the outlet on the inverter itself and it functions just fine. However, the Escape-mounted outlet labeled "Inverter" does not. In fact, none of the outlets are now functioning. Does that help or hinder the troubleshooting? Where are the 2 breakers associated with it located?

[SRS]

Originally Posted by ksitte

Ah, the plot thickens. Yes, I do have an inverter as well. After reading your note, I tested the outlet on the inverter itself and it functions just fine. However, the Escape-mounted outlet labeled "Inverter" does not. In fact, none of the outlets are now functioning. Does that help or hinder the troubleshooting? Where are the 2 breakers associated with it located?

There may be some variation between trailers but usually under the same bench that the power center is located. On mine, it’s the PS dinette bench. Just remove the cushion and lift up the cover. It’s a grey metal box with two breakers.

[ksitte]

SRS,

Allowing for differences in model years, I don't think I have any breakers on the PS side of our Escape.


Here's a picture of what I see. The junction box on the very far left is just that: a junction box of wires (I removed and replaced the cover plate to make sure). I see no additional breakers. The grey plastic box just above the inverter on the left is for the 12v and USB plug.


Apparently, you're thinking the inverter may be involved. Help me understand how.


Klaus

[rubicon327]

Unlikely converter is bad in a 2019 trailer. Fully reset all your AC breakers. If you have an inverter feeding all outlets you must have a gray sub-panel with two outlet breakers as has been suggested. Sometimes they are tucked back up underneath the dinette seats. Find it and check those breakers too. Now if you have a ground fault they can sometimes be hard to find. Turning off a breaker to an appliance doesn’t isolate the problem and it can make you think something is the culprit when it is not. First things I would check is electric elements in hot water heater (if applicable) and your fridge. These can fail hot-to-ground and it can sometimes be intermittent. When our hot water heater element failed the house GFI would not trip until a large load was applied (like the A/C or microwave). Hope this helps.

[SRS]

Originally Posted by ksitte

SRS,

Allowing for differences in model years, I don't think I have any breakers on the PS side of our Escape.

Here's a picture of what I see. The junction box on the very far left is just that: a junction box of wires (I removed and replaced the cover plate to make sure). I see no additional breakers. The grey plastic box just above the inverter on the left is for the 12v and USB plug.

Apparently, you're thinking the inverter may be involved. Help me understand how.

Klaus

My bad. The power transfer switch in my trailer is under the DS bench, so the opposite side from the inverter. Attached is a photo showing the power center with its fuses, breakers, and converter at the bottom and the power transfer switch at the top. It's the largish grey metal box with two breakers. Reset those breakers and see if that helps.

If you can't find the power transfer switch there, you'll have to just look around.

Hope that works,
SRS

[ksitte]

Okay, now I'm more confused. Here's a picture of the front DS side of the inside bench. There's no power transfer switch box, at least not that I can see. And it's not in the rear benches either. Curiously, I recall replacing the box in our previous 19 after doing some troubleshooting with Reace back in 2016. I assumed the box contents were now part of the WFCO converter.

I really don't know where else to look.

[SRS]

Originally Posted by ksitte

Okay, now I'm more confused. Here's a picture of the front DS side of the inside bench. There's no power transfer switch box, at least not that I can see. And it's not in the rear benches either. Curiously, I recall replacing the box in our previous 19 after doing some troubleshooting with Reace back in 2016. I assumed the box contents were now part of the WFCO converter.

I really don't know where else to look.

I don't know what to tell you either but I'm pretty sure you have one. Maybe follow that large orange wire. That same color goes from my power center to my power transfer switch. If ETI installed the inverter and it works on all your plugs, then your trailer must have one. And because it has breakers, it must be accessible. Good Luck.

[Chamberman]

ETI allows you to order the inverter either with or without a transfer switch. The cheaper option without a transfer switch only has a single 120vac outlet powered from the inverter. The rest of the 120 outlets are shore power only.

[ksitte]

Originally Posted by Chamberman

ETI allows you to order the inverter either with or without a transfer switch. The cheaper option without a transfer switch only has a single 120vac outlet powered from the inverter. The rest of the 120 outlets are shore power only.

That's it! I now remember the discussion with Tammy as to whether we wanted the transfer switch.

So now where does that leave me? I still have no AC power in the trailer. And all the circuit breakers are functioning. Where do I check next?

[SRS]

Originally Posted by ksitte

That's it! I now remember the discussion with Tammy as to whether we wanted the transfer switch.

So now where does that leave me? I still have no AC power in the trailer. And all the circuit breakers are functioning. Where do I check next?

I'd start with the shore power plug and start checking from there into the trailer where the cord attaches and keep going. You'll probably need a voltmeter.

[rubicon327]

Just a couple of clarifications for anyone reading this thread in the future…

Originally Posted by ksitte

In our previous 19, the converter was in a separate box mounted on top of the distribution panel. Now, everything is contained within the brown plastic enclosure which I have not yet removed.

That was not the converter. That was the WFCO T-30 transfer switch used when an inverter wired to all outlets is ordered. On a stock Escape the converter main board is in the very bottom of the power center accessible by removing the front cover.

Originally Posted by SRS

I don't know what to tell you either but I'm pretty sure you have one. Maybe follow that large orange wire. That same color goes from my power center to my power transfer switch. If ETI installed the inverter and it works on all your plugs, then your trailer must have one. And because it has breakers, it must be accessible. Good Luck.

If someone only has one larger, orange wire going into the power center that is the shore power feed that will be feeding the main breaker. If you have two orange wires then one is shore power feed and the other is leaving from a 30A breaker in the power center and feeding one of the transfer switch inputs. This can be seen in your picture in post #7.

[SRS]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Just a couple of clarifications for anyone reading this thread in the future…



That was not the converter. That was the WFCO T-30 transfer switch used when an inverter wired to all outlets is ordered. On a stock Escape the converter main board is in the very bottom of the power center accessible by removing the front cover.



If someone only has one larger, orange wire going into the power center that is the shore power feed that will be feeding the main breaker. If you have two orange wires then one is shore power feed and the other is leaving from a 30A breaker in the power center and feeding one of the transfer switch inputs. This can be seen in your picture in post #7.

Thanks for the info on the orange wire. Could be very useful for diagnosing electrical problems in the future.

[JohnK]

From the peanut gallery here, this is a long shot, but, I once had a similar sounding problem on our Casita which turned out to be a burned out electric water heater element tripping GFIs. After disconnecting BOTH element leads the problem went away. Even with only one lead still connected to a bad element a GFI can still sense an open ground in the system and shut it down. I changed out the element, then very importantly filled the water heater with water and resumed normal operations.

[ksitte]

Originally Posted by JohnK

From the peanut gallery here, this is a long shot, but, I once had a similar sounding problem on our Casita which turned out to be a burned out electric water heater element tripping GFIs. After disconnecting BOTH element leads the problem went away. Even with only one lead still connected to a bad element a GFI can still sense an open ground in the system and shut it down. I changed out the element, then very importantly filled the water heater with water and resumed normal operations.

Well, isn't that something? I had read elsewhere that a bad water heater element or terminals could be the culprit. A rather inexpensive fix. So I thought, what the heck: I'll replace it, now with JohnK's encouragement. I had one on hand as a spare. That, apparently, was it. AC power is now restored to all AC outlets and appliances, including refer and aircon. The element itself looked fine, but, upon closer inspection, I could see where the terminals had some black remnants of arcing.

Thanks to all for the troubling shooting help. One thing I did learn was to record (make a written list)each step to ensure it was checked or done the first go-round. I was certain I had completed each step sequentially but, upon further reflection, I couldn't verify that I had done so. Not that it would have made any difference for this issue but at least I wouldn't have repeated some steps.

And Rubicon's reminder that the "missing" metal box on our Escape was a transfer switch, not the converter itself, was informative, especially since ours doesn't have one. And I didn't need to buy a new converter! A good day.

[YakRV]

The Escape Forum saves the day, again!

[oldwave]

Systematic troubleshooting from start to finish with notes is invaluable. Glad you got it figured