Weight of a 21 - Page 4 - Escape Trailer Owners Community

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Old 11-14-2013, 03:15 PM   #31
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Brian, that takes all the fun out of my dangling participle!!
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:12 PM   #32
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Brian, thank you for the well thought out explanation. I now can see that I didn’t pay close enough attention to my surroundings. I did try to keep the level of the tongue consistent, but I can’t give you a measurement as to how level it was. That, to me, says that I didn’t pay close enough attention. I also tried to make sure there were no side loads on the scale by watching its’ body very close while lowering the tongue, or raising the lift. Any kind of movement meant that the cylinder or shaft inserted into the tongue wasn’t placed quite right. I didn’t however think of the dual axle issue. Removing weight from one or the other tends to change the weight levied on the other axle and the tongue. On top of all this, I didn’t think about the chocks. Shifting weight from one axle to another brings the chocks into play which could affect side loads. Boy did I miss a lot, and boy do I have a lot more testing to do.

Can anyone answer the question about how much calculated weight I’ll be towing? Is it axle weight only since the truck is carrying the rest, or is it the trailer weight + the tongue, whereas the tongue weight figures in both carrying capacity and towing capacity?
Oh, and Brian, you got my meaning about “virtually crazy” --- I think
Thanks again, and happy testing!
Tom
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:27 PM   #33
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I meant to respond to this earlier, but then, how much of me can you stand at a time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
I've got a very basic question to ask. I should already know this, but here goes. With my trailer weighing in at 3360# when connected to the truck, am I only pulling that weight, and carrying the tongue weight , for calculation purposes? I know with this setup, on this day, the axles were only carrying 3360# - without the WDH - and the truck was carrying the rest, but what was I towing, again, for calculation purposes?
That depends what you mean by "calculation purposes", but I assume that means if you are calculating the weight of the trailer to compare to the vehicle's limits.
The tug's rated trailer weight limit is for the whole trailer, including both the portion supported on the trailer's axles (3360 lb in this case), and the portion (tongue weight) supported by the truck.

A reminder... keeping in mind that the ratings (limits) for these are the same term with an R on the end:
  • Gross Combined Weight {GCW} - includes the tug with everything in it and all of the trailer, including tongue weight, but don't count the tongue weight twice! This is what the tug's drivetrain is moving down the road.
  • Gross Vehicle Weight (of the tug) {GVW} - includes everything supported on the tug's axles, so that includes the tongue weight (only) of the trailer. This is what the tug's structure and suspension have to handle.
  • Gross Vehicle Weight (of the tug) {GVW or GTW} - all of the trailer, including tongue weight. This is what the trailer's structure has to handle. The Escape product page for the 21' says the rating for this (GVWR) is no more than 4500 pounds.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:35 PM   #34
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So...
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Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
... is it the trailer weight + the tongue, whereas the tongue weight figures in both carrying capacity and towing capacity?
Yes. Weight on the tongue hurts you in every possible way, perhaps other than stability.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:04 PM   #35
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The Sherline needs to have all of the weight removed for re-weighing to expect it to work properly. It needs to reset but it may possibly work sometimes without doing that depending on what you are doing. Looks as if you did not get it reset in some instances.

Your previous weighings indicate that the Sherline is working very well. When you get a big discrepancy, it is no doubt you. Even long-time trailer owners may sometimes forget what not to do, but they know that it is them and not the scale when they have such a big discrepancy. Someone may even have stabilizers down, for instance, and all kinds of things can goof up the weighing. I am sure you know not to pick it up by the piston as that will get air into it and mess up the weights. When it seems not to work, you need to step back and look at your set-up and think about exactly what you did. We cannot tell because there are so many possibilities but that scale looks good to me. You might even have a long-time trailer owner use it to see if there is a problem with someone else.



The reason I question the Sherline's accuracy is the following: I put the trailer tongue weight on the scale and received an indication of 380#. I then placed about 200 more pounds on the tongue and it indicated 580#. I then removed the 200# and the scale only returned to about 500#. If I do it again, but only use 100#, the Sherline doesn't return at all. I also received two different measurements depending on weather or not I lowered the trailer tongue onto the scale (only by 2") or raised the scale to the tongue with my hydraulic floor jack. Both methods are recommended in the Sherline directions. The difference was over 100#. In my old line of work, (Metrology) this scale would have been either rejected, or qualified as only being accurate in one direction, using one method. This phenomenon happened using two different, brand new Sherline scales.[/QUOTE]
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floating Cloud View Post
The Sherline needs to have all of the weight removed for re-weighing to expect it to work properly. It needs to reset but it may possibly work sometimes without doing that depending on what you are doing. Looks as if you did not get it reset in some instances.
I can see why you would always want the direction of movement of the piston approaching the measurement point to be the same (in the instructions, adding load t the scale and so compressing the piston into the bore) for repeatability despite piston seal friction, but beyond that the idea of a "reset" of this device makes no sense to me.

It's not electronic, it doesn't do anything at zero load... it's just a hydraulic cylinder with a pressure gauge. The cylinder is made with a one-square-inch cross section so a pounds per square inch gauge will display the same number as the applied force in pounds, and it has an aluminum body and and end designed for convenient application of a load, but as far as the force measurement function is concerned any hydraulic cylinder would work. When the force goes to zero the gauge reads zero, but the gauge doesn't need to go to zero to accurately show pressure.

Neither Sherline's product page for the scale, nor the Care and Tips sheet, say anything about resetting or going to zero between readings. The sheet refers to a booklet that comes with the scale, but it is not available at the promised link (http://www.sherline.com/lmbook2.pdf) so I don't know what it says.

This is my small hydraulic cylinder: 2 Ton Porta-Power Ram. I put this (I think) pressure gauge on it: 0 to 2,000 PSI Glycerine Filled Pressure Gauge. The cylinder's cross-sectional area is about 0.5 square inches so I divide the pressure reading by two, and I have a 0-1000 lb scale. It would be a 0-4000 lb scale if I used a 0-8000 psi gauge, but I'm interested in Escape-sized trailers. It reads the force on it (so the tongue weight when turned upright and stuck under the coupler), and the reading changes to match the force, with no resetting required.

What am I missing?
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:34 AM   #37
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If my earlier definitions list seemed nonsensical to you... it was. Darn cut-and-paste errors! Too late to fix the original, corrected version below (with the last item corrected from "tug" to "trailer" GVW:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
  • Gross Combined Weight {GCW} - includes the tug with everything in it and all of the trailer, including tongue weight, but don't count the tongue weight twice! This is what the tug's drivetrain is moving down the road.
  • Gross Vehicle Weight (of the tug) {GVW} - includes everything supported on the tug's axles, so that includes the tongue weight (only) of the trailer. This is what the tug's structure and suspension have to handle.
  • Gross Vehicle Weight (of the trailer) {GVW or GTW} - all of the trailer, including tongue weight. This is what the trailer's structure has to handle. The Escape product page for the 21' says the rating for this (GVWR) is no more than 4500 pounds.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:40 AM   #38
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For the sake of information...
Who can sum up the average real world weight of the new 21? This might be beneficial to those lurking around with the thought of trading up or getting their first Escape.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:39 AM   #39
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Brian, I agree with you on not having to go back to zero in order to attain an accurate reading. Nowhere in the Sherline manual does it state that zeroing is a requirement. I also talked to their maintenance/testing department lead. I gave him a sequential list of my tests, their setups, etc. and they thought that the scale I had was sticking (seal resistance) because of the return inaccuracies. This new scale does basically the same thing though. I'll bet my setup, lack of control on tongue height along with my lack of understanding about dual axle and chocks, is part, or all of the problem.

Before I call them again, I plan on doing more testing. Maybe I'll take the scale into my old calibration lab and test it under a strictly controlled environment. We would know for sure how accurate the Sherline is along with any and all limitations. I'll let you know the outcome.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:51 AM   #40
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Dave, I think for round numbers, we can go with Reaces' figures. They were loaded up for a long trip and 4 people aboard. Reace has stated that they were around 3900 lbs I believe. My 21 weight, lightly loaded (kitchen equipment, bedding, some towels, compressor, tools, chocks, leveling blocks, 18V drill) came out to 3360 lbs, not including the tongue weight. I'm still working on the tongue weight using the Sherline scale, but haven't refined my process yet for an accurate reading that I can believe in. My most consistent indication was 380 lbs.
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