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Old 11-05-2020, 01:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bdornbush View Post
If someone else has installed the tire and OVERTORQUED the bolts, is that a problem?
It is. Two ways; one way over torquing starts to get into snap the stud territory and two, if you go to take the wheel off when on the road and your wheel wrench isn't long enough and you can't undo them you're in trouble. Then you add a 3' piece and pipe and you still can't break it free.

I'd say, yes, a good thing to do on a used trailer is check the torque yourself, not rely on someone else doing the right thing.

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Old 11-05-2020, 01:30 PM   #42
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Y'all are funny!
Showed this to my wife - "OMG! are they crazy?"

Which is why married men live longer than singles. The wife's filter out some of the ideas we come up with.
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Old 11-05-2020, 03:27 PM   #43
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Showed this to my wife - "OMG! are they crazy?"

Which is why married men live longer than singles. The wife's filter out some of the ideas we come up with.
Depends on how long you've been married. After awhile you learn not to mention your "great ideas" ahead of time.

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Old 11-05-2020, 04:56 PM   #44
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Showed this to my wife - "OMG! are they crazy?"

Which is why married men live longer than singles. The wife's filter out some of the ideas we come up with.
....................

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Depends on how you've been married. After awhile you learn not to mention your "great ideas" ahead of time.
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:10 PM   #45
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Sorry Lubrication of Fasteners is ALWAYS a good thing. Provides consistent preload given the torque. Torque is not the end goal. Preload is. If the joint loads are ever greater then the bolt preload then the joint "fails", and loosening can happen. Mainly the lubrication helps prevent galling. Yes it will typically make things a tad bit slippery, but not much, mainly just more consistent preload, lug vs lug. Usually its the lugnut face that is more of a concern rather then the threads. So at the least put a little lubricate there. Using torque to establish preload is only +-30 % accuracy, thus using lubrication if anything you'll err on the side of a little tighter but within the OEM's desired range.

I've done studies where just tiniest bit of gall (hardly visible) on the nut face resulted in ONLY 60% of expected pre-load given the torque. Why chance that ??! THAT's DANGEROUS. THAT'S HOW THE WHEELS COME OFF.

Now I don't work for transportation* (cars, trailer, etc) but there are probably reasons ($$) why they don't insist on lubricating lugnuts. But If lugnuts ever loosen, its because the preload wasn't enough. (assuming design was correct for the loads..) (* I do work on equip for oil, nuclear, etc industry. I'll specify the bolting for say a container at 5000 psi, if I recall correctly that container's bolt force was upwards of 5 million pounds. Northern BC, kill radius of product if something went wrong, 15 miles or so. Yes we grease the threads and the washers. BSME, MSME, and PE (Oregon) license. )
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Centex View Post
Fastener torque specifications are 'absolute' (usually within a range of specified tolerance), not a 'minimum expression'. Over-torque can lead to fastener failure and/or distortion / damage of the components being fastened.

One should be cautious about re-tightening fasteners that have been in place for a time without removing them to ensure the surfaces are CLEAN of accumulated corrosion which can lead to false torque values.
What you really mean is "false" (LOW and thus dangerous) pre-load given the torque. A person will still torque to the oem torque values. So the torque reading can't be false. In general torque is poor way to establish pre-load, but its very practical and cheap, and a simple way around it is to design the components so they can handle the large variance.
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:39 PM   #47
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Could be, the grease will lead to over torquing, not a good thing. Or help the lug nut come undone. Easy on, easy off.

All that's needed with wheel studs is a light wire brushing if they have a bit of surface rust and you can't spin them on with your fingers.

I hate to see advice like this posted knowing so many newbies hang on every word they read on the forum.

Ron
WRONG. And what you are conveying is dangerous. How can grease lead to over-torquing? If you are using a torque wrench, one would torque to the same value, lube or not. Over-torquing would be just that, e,g taking the OEM value and doubling it or something. Yes of course not a good thing.

Now there no absolutes, but lubricate will trend the scatter to a more consistent and higher average preload.
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:42 PM   #48
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Depends on how long you've been married. After awhile you learn not to mention your "great ideas" ahead of time.

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I’m at 50 years and I still say things like I think I’ll buy another boat. Who has ever actually ducked a frying pan? It hit the door so hard it bent the pan which rocked back and forth for a few seconds where it landed. I should have known better but I’d been drinking when I said “Hey, now we have an omelet pan.” And it was downhill from there.
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:56 PM   #49
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Lubrication is not for lug nuts. Period. From the co-inventor of the Torque Your Nuts World Wide Championship. And don’t forget Ladies were welcome, encouraged to compete and won it all the first year. And finished in the top ten every year.
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Old 11-05-2020, 07:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by schmidjo View Post
WRONG. And what you are conveying is dangerous. How can grease lead to over-torquing? If you are using a torque wrench, one would torque to the same value, lube or not. Over-torquing would be just that, e,g taking the OEM value and doubling it or something. Yes of course not a good thing.

Now there no absolutes, but lubricate will trend the scatter to a more consistent and higher average preload.
Hey so Welcome- see you're a new forum member. How's that 17A?
But experts tell us not to use any lubricant, including anti-seize compound, on wheel studs or nuts. The tech folks at Tire Rack state: "Torque specifications are for dry threads only. The fastener threads should be free of oil, dirt, grit, corrosion, etc. It is important NOT to lubricate hardware threads or seats.May 29, 2019
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Old 11-05-2020, 07:31 PM   #51
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I put anti seize on the wheel studs of a Corolla one time, damn things were terrible to get off without. Fast forward a few years. Getting new tires at Costco, after they had it in the bay for 90 minutes I went in to ask what the hold up was. The tech was very carefully removing all the anti freeze from all 20 stubs and lug nuts. I didn't tell them who put it there.
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Old 11-05-2020, 08:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by schmidjo View Post
WRONG. And what you are conveying is dangerous. How can grease lead to over-torquing? If you are using a torque wrench, one would torque to the same value, lube or not. Over-torquing would be just that, e,g taking the OEM value and doubling it or something. Yes of course not a good thing.

Now there no absolutes, but lubricate will trend the scatter to a more consistent and higher average preload.
At this point I just have to jump in. I have been a mechanic since my early teens. I am now 80. I have read more times than I care to count about the danger of lubricating lug nuts. Never NEVER do it! Just ask any good tire shop and see what they say. PLEASE.

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Old 11-05-2020, 09:41 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by schmidjo View Post
Sorry Lubrication of Fasteners is ALWAYS a good thing. Provides consistent preload given the torque. Torque is not the end goal. Preload is. If the joint loads are ever greater then the bolt preload then the joint "fails", and loosening can happen. Mainly the lubrication helps prevent galling. Yes it will typically make things a tad bit slippery, but not much, mainly just more consistent preload, lug vs lug. Usually its the lugnut face that is more of a concern rather then the threads. So at the least put a little lubricate there. Using torque to establish preload is only +-30 % accuracy, thus using lubrication if anything you'll err on the side of a little tighter but within the OEM's desired range.

I've done studies where just tiniest bit of gall (hardly visible) on the nut face resulted in ONLY 60% of expected pre-load given the torque. Why chance that ??! THAT's DANGEROUS. THAT'S HOW THE WHEELS COME OFF.

Now I don't work for transportation* (cars, trailer, etc) but there are probably reasons ($$) why they don't insist on lubricating lugnuts. But If lugnuts ever loosen, its because the preload wasn't enough. (assuming design was correct for the loads..) (* I do work on equip for oil, nuclear, etc industry. I'll specify the bolting for say a container at 5000 psi, if I recall correctly that container's bolt force was upwards of 5 million pounds. Northern BC, kill radius of product if something went wrong, 15 miles or so. Yes we grease the threads and the washers. BSME, MSME, and PE (Oregon) license. )
What you are saying about preload is correct if you are trying to form a certain pressure between two surfaces. But that is not the case with lug nuts.

Here is the problem with your hypothesis about lubing wheel lugs for proper torque. Much of the “stickiness” brought about by proper torque comes not from the threads but from the contact between mating surfaces. Even a thin film of lubricant between the lug nut and the rim can create a hydraulic barrier making it easier for the nut to work itself loose.

If you want to insure that the lug nuts are correctly tightened, you're better off carefully cleaning the rust off the threads with a wire brush if they are rusty such that you can give the nut at least 10 turns by hand to ensure that no cross threading has occurred, and that the threads are free of obstructions. No lube!
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Old 11-05-2020, 09:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by schmidjo View Post
WRONG. And what you are conveying is dangerous. How can grease lead to over-torquing? If you are using a torque wrench, one would torque to the same value, lube or not. Over-torquing would be just that, e,g taking the OEM value and doubling it or something. Yes of course not a good thing.

Now there no absolutes, but lubricate will trend the scatter to a more consistent and higher average preload.
You've made a giant presumption. You've said that it'd be impossible to over torque a lubed stud. That presumes that all wheels on all vehicles are always installed using a torque wrench. That's simply not the case. For the last 100 years folks have done just fine changing flats or winter tires without needing a torque wrench. By some strange coincidence I've noticed when I put almost maximum grunt on the wheel wrench the result is just fine. I have compared my "feel" against the torque wrench and it's pretty close.

Some folks may remember the good old Dodge left hand wheel threads. People routinely snapped them trying to "undo" them. That was by arm power, not an impact gun. Lube up the threads, have a person trying to make sure that they've got the lug nuts tight enough. If they make real sure by using foot pressure on the wrench they've gone into an over stress situation. Or they snap the stud, easy to do. And after you've replaced a couple of snapped ones, not hard to install new studs.

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Old 11-05-2020, 11:18 PM   #55
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How can grease lead to over-torquing? If you are using a torque wrench, one would torque to the same value, lube or not.
IMO you make the mistake of failing to recognize that the underlying and ultimately critical objective of a fastener torque specification is to achieve an intended design tension on the fastener itself. It is tension on the fastener that dictates the actual performance of the assembly (along with friction of all of the assembly interfaces in consideration of certain loading conditions such as shear).

Fastener torque, when measured under proper conditions (i.e. CLEAN AND DRY unless otherwise specifically directed), is a good and well-established surrogate (proxy indicator) for the actual tension imposed on the fastener; a surrogate that's useful and necessary in the actual practice of assembling components because there is no practical tool for directly measuring actual fastener tension in the real-world setting of component assembly (though measurement of fastener tension is certainly practical in the laboratory setting).

For any given torque-wrench reading (the value of the surrogate) the actual tension imposed on the fastener will differ between lubricated and dry conditions. It is in that critically important sense that the torque value can be rendered "false" - that is to say that the torque value expressed on the measurement device (the torque wrench) is no longer a "true" ("valid", if you prefer) surrogate expression for the tension imposed on the fastener. Again, it is the actual tension on the fastener that dictates the stresses on the assembly, on the fastener itself, and thereby the actual performance of the assembly.

The long and well-established standard for fastener torque specifications is based on CLEAN AND DRY fasteners (unless specifically and explicitly stated otherwise); that's the condition that yields the intended fastener tension, the the underlying critical performance factor for the assembly. The surrogate is not 'perfect', but the imperfect correlation between a properly measured fastener torque value and the actual tension imposed on the fastener of interest is well-established and considered in the derivation of those fastener torque specifications.

So yes, it may be more accurate to say that lubricating a fastener can yield "over-tensioning of the fastener" rather than saying it yields "over-torqueing" as expressed on the torque-wrench. But regardless of the semantics the point is that lubrication (or anything other than CLEAN AND DRY) can lead to imposing stresses on the assembly that it is not intended to manage and failure of the assembly to perform as intended. And those are potentially property and life-endangering conditions when it comes to road-wheels.
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Old 11-06-2020, 11:14 AM   #56
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Remind me to stay away from single axle trailers in the highway..........
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Old 11-06-2020, 06:39 PM   #57
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Remind me to stay away from single axle trailers in the highway..........
Why? Almost every lost wheel and tire comes off of a tandem-axle trailer, because doubling the number of components increases the chance that something will be poorly maintained or defective, and tandem axles introduces the almost certainty of uneven loading between axles and possibility of overloading one axle.
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Old 11-06-2020, 07:13 PM   #58
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Why? Almost every lost wheel and tire comes off of a tandem-axle trailer, because doubling the number of components increases the chance that something will be poorly maintained or defective, and tandem axles introduces the almost certainty of uneven loading between axles and possibility of overloading one axle.
I suppose some think if you have a tandem axle trailer you can just use half the torque for the lug nuts.

Enjoy,

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Old 11-06-2020, 07:26 PM   #59
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Why? Almost every lost wheel and tire comes off of a tandem-axle trailer, because doubling the number of components increases the chance that something will be poorly maintained or defective, and tandem axles introduces the almost certainty of uneven loading between axles and possibility of overloading one axle.
Me thinks that might have been a reference to the 17A owner preferring up why you should grease the wheel studs.
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Old 11-06-2020, 08:06 PM   #60
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You've made a giant presumption. You've said that it'd be impossible to over torque a lubed stud. That presumes that all wheels on all vehicles are always installed using a torque wrench. That's simply not the case. For the last 100 years folks have done just fine changing flats or winter tires without needing a torque wrench. By some strange coincidence I've noticed when I put almost maximum grunt on the wheel wrench the result is just fine. I have compared my "feel" against the torque wrench and it's pretty close.

Some folks may remember the good old Dodge left hand wheel threads. People routinely snapped them trying to "undo" them. That was by arm power, not an impact gun. Lube up the threads, have a person trying to make sure that they've got the lug nuts tight enough. If they make real sure by using foot pressure on the wrench they've gone into an over stress situation. Or they snap the stud, easy to do. And after you've replaced a couple of snapped ones, not hard to install new studs.

Ron
Oh yes! I am reminded of when my brother in law George was hitchhiking home with a couple of buddies while on Navy leave. They came upon a woman with a flat. They offered to help, but after twisting off about 3 of the nuts they gave up and resumed hitchhiking. After returning home, he told me the story. I said to him, "it was a Chrysler product wasn't it?" George said "how did you know
I also remember a tire shop twisting off a couple of lugnuts on my wife's Mazda pickup. They put the hubcap on and never said a thing.
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