Towing through the Rockies

[Bozlouie]

Thanks good to know
The. Sienna is very close to an Odyssey.

[HabibaNola]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I towed my 2011 17B that weighed 3010 pounds and a tongue weight of 340 pounds all over the rockies, including to Leadville, CO a number of times with a 2010 RAV4 rated at 3500/350.

While I liked the size of the combination and used them together for 85,000 miles, I eventually replaced the RAV4 with a Tacoma when the RAV4 hit 140,000 miles. While the RAV4 did the job, the Tacoma did it better. Biggest complaint about the RAV4 was the small gas tank & low ground clearance.

Thank you SO much for this info. I have been searching and searching! I'm wanting to tow 3100 pounds with my 2018 Rav4 Adventure (i4 engine) with 3500 lbs rating. I have dealer installed brake controller and hitch and will be adding a weight distribution bar. Does this sound like it will work to you?

[gbaglo]

I tow a 17B with a 2008 RAV4 V6 Sport with tow prep package. Problem is, your vehicle is different in many ways, so our experience will probably be different.

[Vermilye]

I have to agree with Glenn. The V6 version of the RAV4 was what many describe as an overpowered vehicle. It was the "hottest" vehicle I've driven since my 1969 Camaro. While the new i4 powered RAV4 is rated the same for towing, I doubt it has the pulling power of the V6.

[HabibaNola]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I tow a 17B with a 2008 RAV4 V6 Sport with tow prep package. Problem is, your vehicle is different in many ways, so our experience will probably be different.

So, what trailer weight limit would you guys suggest for my Rav4 Adventure? i4 engine, added cooler for oil and transmission, with 4.0 torque and 6 speed automatic AWD.
Curb weight on the Rav4 is around 3600 and fully loaded auto wt could be 4600. GCWR is 8100. It looks like you think the Escape 19 is going to be too heavy once loaded, even if I'm within the weight guides.

[gbaglo]

I wouldn't happily tow the 19' with my RAV4 V6.
If I were you, I'd get the 19' and a capable tow vehicle.

[padlin]

Originally Posted by HabibaNola

So, what trailer weight limit would you guys suggest for my Rav4 Adventure? i4 engine, added cooler for oil and transmission, with 4.0 torque and 6 speed automatic AWD.
Curb weight on the Rav4 is around 3600 and fully loaded auto wt could be 4600. GCWR is 8100. It looks like you think the Escape 19 is going to be too heavy once loaded, even if I'm within the weight guides.

From Jon's speadsheet it looks like you could do the 17, the 19 tongue weight would be over with the 19 as well as borderline tow weight.

From the specs I saw the tongue limit is 350 lbs.

http://lakeshoreimages.com/spreadsheets/Weight.xls

[HabibaNola]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I wouldn't happily tow the 19' with my RAV4 V6.
If I were you, I'd get the 19' and a capable tow vehicle.

LOL If money weren't at issue...

But what trailer weight limit should I consider? Dry weight of 2800 or less?

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by HabibaNola

LOL If money weren't at issue...

But what trailer weight limit should I consider? Dry weight of 2800 or less?

You could get a 17b, load it and the tug lightly, keep speed 60 mph or less, and plan to climb long grades at 30-40 mph. Or a 13' Scamp, which would have about the same wind resistance on the highway but would tow somewhat easier up the grades due to its lighter weight. See, you're faced with 2 different factors. At highway speed it's all about pulling a sail through the air. When climbing forces you to slow down, weight becomes the bigger factor and wind resistance lessens dramatically.


Heat is what damages transmissions, so if you can keep the tranny temp down on those climbs you are fine.


We can't really give you a magic number. It has a lot to do with where and how you drive, the weather conditions, the characteristics of your particular vehicle, etc. Too many variables.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by HabibaNola

But what trailer weight limit should I consider? Dry weight of 2800 or less?

While the gross loaded trailer weight is certainly an issue, I think the tongue weight will be even more limiting. What if we work backward from there...

• maximum tongue weight 350 pounds
• if the tongue weight is to be at least 12% of the trailer weight, that puts the gross (loaded) trailer weight at no more than 2916 pounds
• if options, water/waste, and your stuff is about 1000 pounds (Escape actually suggests planning for 1150 pounds with a 19' in their FAQ) that leaves 1916 pounds for the base dry trailer weight

That's below the weight of even a 17' without a bathroom. You could do a 17' with a bathroom, by carrying less stuff. A 19' would require that you carry nothing in the trailer, which isn't reasonable.

[John in Santa Cruz]

there's really two factors here. 1 is overloading the vehicles power train, transmission and so forth, causing premature expensive repairs, the other is too much weight on the suspension, and in particular behind the rear axle, which leads to stability problems and increased potential for losing control and crashing.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

there's really two factors here. 1 is overloading the vehicles power train, transmission and so forth, causing premature expensive repairs, the other is too much weight on the suspension, and in particular behind the rear axle, which leads to stability problems and increased potential for losing control and crashing.

I would agree with those two, and add a third:
#3 - Too much trailer mass and inertia for the tug, leading to lower stability and inadequate ability to control the trailer. This is largely dependent on total trailer weight (like #1), but also depends on mass (weight) distribution.

Reducing the tongue weight to "fix" #2 can make #3 worse, especially if it done by shifting load onto the back on the trailer (or even worse adding load on the back of the trailer).

[John in Santa Cruz]

true that. and dual axle trailers tend to be more stable than singles. longer wheelbase tugs are more stable too. my F250 LB is redonkulously stable, with a 158" wheelbase.

[HabibaNola]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

While the gross loaded trailer weight is certainly an issue, I think the tongue weight will be even more limiting. What if we work backward from there...

• maximum tongue weight 350 pounds
• if the tongue weight is to be at least 12% of the trailer weight, that puts the gross (loaded) trailer weight at no more than 2916 pounds
• if options, water/waste, and your stuff is about 1000 pounds (Escape actually suggests planning for 1150 pounds with a 19' in their FAQ) that leaves 1916 pounds for the base dry trailer weight

That's below the weight of even a 17' without a bathroom. You could do a 17' with a bathroom, by carrying less stuff. A 19' would require that you carry nothing in the trailer, which isn't reasonable.

Wouldn't the weight distribution system mitigate the tongue weight?

[padlin]

I think a WDH just moves some of the weight off the rear axle and onto the front axle, doesn't change the max hitch weight. Here's one for you, what does a 100 lb WDH mean to the max tongue weight you can handle.

[Rossue]

According to VESA-5 the weight of the hitch is not considered to be part of the tongue weight and is added to the cargo weight of the tow vehicle.

[John in Santa Cruz]

yeah, what bob says, it moves some of the hitch weight off the rear axle and onto the front... so its still part of the vehicle payload, just better distributed.

i'm gonna guess an Escape has 1000 to 1200 lb payload, a 3500 loaded lb trailer would put 350 to 500 lbs on there, leaving you with a total remaining payload of 500 to 800 lbs depending. add my wife and I to the front seat, and you'd have almost nothing left of that 500 :-/

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by HabibaNola

Wouldn't the weight distribution system mitigate the tongue weight?

If by "mitigate" you mean not count as much, as far as the tow vehicle's limits are concerned... not necessarily.

Originally Posted by padlin

I think a WDH just moves some of the weight off the rear axle and onto the front axle, doesn't change the max hitch weight.

It also moves load to the trailer's axle(s), but I agree that it at least does not necessarily change the hitch weight limit. While the WDH reduces the load being carried by the tug's rear axle, that's not the only reason for a hitch weight limit. Some owner's manuals (including for my Sienna) provide different hitch weight limits for weight-carrying and weight-distributing hitches, but others do not.

If your tug allows a higher tongue weight in weight-distributing mode (that is, with a WDH), then use that number for planning... but that means you are responsible for properly adjusting the WDH (and a lot of people do not adjust them properly).

[Brian B-P]

Bizarrely, the 2018 RAV4 manual does not specify a limit for hitch weight, only a guideline to have 9% to 11% hitch weight. To me, that implies a limit of 11% of 3500 pounds, which is 385 pounds; the hitch will also have a limit which may be lower (such as 350 pounds).

So based on a 385 pound hitch weight limit, a trailer with 12% tongue weight (you won't likely be under that with an Escape) could have a gross weight of 3208 pounds... still okay for a 17' if not carrying too much, and still not workable for a 19'.

To determine what what trailer weight is allowed by the GCWR, and what tongue weight is allowed by the GVWR, you need a real weight for your tug plus you and your stuff in the tug.

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

So based on a 385 pound hitch weight limit, a trailer with 12% tongue weight (you won't likely be under that with an Escape) could have a gross weight of 3208 pounds... still okay for a 17' if not carrying too much, and still not workable for a 19'.

I think your 12% tongue weight and loading calculations for the 19' are supported by the real world weights of most trailers, however it is possible to have a 2nd gen 19' on the road at under 3500 lbs.

Quoting a post I made in late 2017 in http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f1...ght-11335.html

Originally Posted by Micheal K

We just came back from a couple days of camping and decided stop at the commercial scale. I weighed the TV and trailer axles all connected first and then disconnected and weighed the TV again to get the tongue weight and trailer weight.

Trailer(total including tongue wt): 3344 lbs
Tongue: 330 lbs

This is probably nearly as light as possible for a 2017 19.

Trailer was dry (including the HW tank). Also only had 1 propane bottle on the front. It did however have a fair amount of food and beverages in it as well as our normal (fairly minimal) camping gear.

Our trailer is very lightly optioned, no AC, no factory solar, single battery and no storage box. It does however, have the extra insulation and thermal windows. Dry weight of trailer as per ETI was 3110 lbs but I didn't get a chance to confirm that before adding our gear.