2023 Pricing

[WillyB]

When I placed my $2,000 deposit last summer I understood pricing would probably change before I signed off on my build sheet. I understood the risk and would only lose $150 for the transaction fee to get the remainder of my deposit back. I was okay with that rule of engagement.

In June I signed off on our build sheet which made my $2,000 non-refundable. The very next day I received an email from Escape about their price increase. I called them and they said since I had already signed off on my build sheet they waived this new price increase.

On this most recent price increase I called them again and was told the same thing.

I think Escape honored their commitment since they did waive the last two price increases because I was fully committed to the unit. Granted, If I backed out before completion I would lose my $2,000 deposit and they would list my camper as an inventory unit at the new current pricing.

Basically, Escape covered the roughly $9,000 increase over these two price increases.

Until signing the build sheet you are only committed to losing the $150 transaction fee to get the remainder of your deposit back.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by WillyB

. . . Until signing the build sheet you are only committed to losing the $150 transaction fee to get the remainder of your deposit back.

And once you sign the Build Sheet, Escape is committed to the price at that time.

I think this is a reasonable policy. I was having a tough time finding used Escapes within a thousand miles of Massachusetts last winter, so put down the $2,000 deposit to hold a spot for a new one some 18 months in the future. Then fortunately in April I was able to make a deal with one of the members here for his 2019 E21C, and so cancelled my deposit—lost $150, but figured it was worth it to have an Escape in hand. And by August of 2023, or whenever we'd have gotten a Build Sheet, who knows what the price would have been?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

To me that is just a ridiculous increase in such a short amount of time that cannot be justified

You haven't seen our other price increases that we've been slammed with. Gas price increases are eye watering. We're all just along for the ride unless we opt out of some things. Other things, like escalating food costs, aren't as optional.

Ron

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by WillyB

When I placed my $2,000 deposit last summer I understood pricing would probably change before I signed off on my build sheet. I understood the risk and would only lose $150 for the transaction fee to get the remainder of my deposit back. I was okay with that rule of engagement.

In June I signed off on our build sheet which made my $2,000 non-refundable. The very next day I received an email from Escape about their price increase. I called them and they said since I had already signed off on my build sheet they waived this new price increase.

On this most recent price increase I called them again and was told the same thing.

I think Escape honored their commitment since they did waive the last two price increases because I was fully committed to the unit. Granted, If I backed out before completion I would lose my $2,000 deposit and they would list my camper as an inventory unit at the new current pricing.

Basically, Escape covered the roughly $9,000 increase over these two price increases.

Until signing the build sheet you are only committed to losing the $150 transaction fee to get the remainder of your deposit back.

I agree...

IMHO, Escape has been very transparent with respect to the ordering process and identifying the point when pricing is locked in. I was never under the impression that the pricing that was published at the time I submitted a deposit was the price that I was going to pay. I was hoping that the increases were going to be less dramatic, but given the circumstances...I'm not overly surprised either.

I would certainly be nice if they could offer pricing protection like an automaker, but I can see why that simply isn't possible for a relatively low volume boutique manufacturer. They don't possess the buying power nor supply contracts of multi-billion dollar manufacturing conglomerate.

[MarkinVan]

"The 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning will now start at $51,974 US, a 30-percent increase over its original MSRP." Road & Track today.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

You haven't seen our other price increases that we've been slammed with. Gas price increases are eye watering. We're all just along for the ride unless we opt out of some things. Other things, like escalating food costs, aren't as optional.

Ron

Understood Ron. My comment was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I just hate to see folks so quickly priced out of something they have possibly been saving for and dreaming about for years.

[Don Flamenco]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Understood Ron. My comment was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I just hate to see folks so quickly priced out of something they have possibly been saving for and dreaming about for years.

Agreed. People on this thread are reporting 20%, 35% & 48% price increases--THAT is not a sustainable business model!

I'm waiting a year. Prices will be very much on the side of the buyer, and I won't be stuck with something that's lost 30% - 50% of its value from what I paid.

Plus, I am very well likely to find a 1-2 year old Escape from this very forum, from someone who paid a lot more.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

...
Escape is in many ways a custom made product, I see it as completely different from a auto manufacturer .....

There was a time when ETI would build a 'custom' trailer incorporating (within limits) 'off-menu' alterations, additions, and/or deletions to a buyer's specs. I think it's pretty clear that now ETI only offers trailers with a finite set of defined options (the à la carte menu, if you will) - you can choose among those many defined options to get a trailer 'customized' for you but there's no 'off-menu' work done at all any more.

The 'custom order' scheme offered by Ford, GM, and a few other auto manufacturers offers a large but finite number of defined options (again, the à la carte menu) and the buyer can order a vehicle built by the manufacturer having (within limits) the particular options the buyer selects for their 'build'.

In both cases there's lots of items on the à la carte menu but both buyer and manufacturer are bound by that finite menu created by the manufacturer. IMO the two are therefore very analogous in terms of degree of 'customization' offered the buyer and managed by the manufacturer. And since there's inevitably a lead-time, often long, between placing a 'custom order' and build / delivery of the product in both cases, there's analogous risk of inflation, labor, logistics, and component supply chain issues during that process. The scale of the business and the volume of transaction may differ, but I suggest that all of the same 'pieces' are 'in-play' for both buyer and manufacturer.

IMO it's interesting and noteworthy that Ford, in various public announcements about long-term corporate strategy, has expressed the goal of significantly increasing the % of sales via the 'custom order process' with an attendant reduction of the % of sales based on 'dealer stock inventory'. They've learned some hard and costly (for both corporate and dealers) lessons about the downside of having large 'stock' / speculative inventories sitting on dealer lots when markets are volatile.

To date Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, and most other Asian-based manufacturers do not offer buyers any 'custom order' scheme at all. They advertise and build vehicles with a number of 'options' / 'option bundles' as they see fit and disperse those among their dealer network. Buyers can shop that network to find the vehicle built with options closest to their preferred spec, but buyers have no 'personal customizing' opportunity at all, there is no à la carte menu for buyers at all. That scheme is analogous to many of the high-volume RV manufacturers - buyers take (or don't take) what they can find in dealer inventory but have no opportunity at all to have the manufacturer 'customize' the build to the buyer's individual preferences.

There are also a few marques in both arenas, typically priced at the very high-end market, which offer a high degree individual customization including 'off-menu' and/or true 'bespoke' builds.
_____________

Back to the price and price protection topic, I understand that it may not be possible for ETI to offer the degree of near absolute customer price protection that Ford offers. But I do think, as @MrLynn suggests, that ETI could protect their own financial condition while also offering some better-than-current degree of price protection and/or no-penalty opt-out for customers who have placed an order IF they were inclined to empathy for the plight of those customers. IMO it's all too easy to glean from the current ETI practices that they lack that empathy.

BUT, as previously stated, that is absolutely ETI's prerogative as a company, just as it is each potential buyer's prerogative to conduct or not conduct business with the company.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Centex

Back to the price and price protection topic, I understand that it may not be possible for ETI to offer the degree of near absolute customer price protection that Ford offers.

I'm not sure if it relates to Ford but as of this week local dealers for some brands are adding on a $1,000 fee. Not a so-called documentation fee but an additional one on the basis that the MSRP is only that, a suggested price, and that they're free to charge whatever price they want. In this market they can get away with it. Hopefully for not too long. Crazy times.

Ron

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I'm not sure if it relates to Ford but as of this week local dealers for some brands are adding on a $1,000 fee. Not a so-called documentation fee but an additional one on the basis that the MSRP is only that, a suggested price, and that they're free to charge whatever price they want. In this market they can get away with it. Hopefully for not too long. Crazy times.

Ron

Franchise dealers for all manufacturers using the franchise distribution system (Ford among them) are capable of this sort of thing, it's known in the industry as "ADM" (Additional Dealer Markup). Buyers should understand that manufacturers set MSRP but Dealers set vehicle Sales Prices. This is a function of the long-fought nature of the dealer franchise agreement and in some cases state statutes which protect an automobile dealer's right to set the price for the products they sell (the various state and national Automobile Dealers' Associations and lobby are extremely well-connected and powerful). Ford, as have most manufacturers, publicly expresses great chagrin about the practice, claiming it harms their reputation, but is largely without the ability to directly prohibit it.

This is another area where consumers can make the difference by choosing where they conduct their business. I can assure you that even though some dealers impose crazy ADMs, and some buyers pay it, there are always other dealers who concurrently sell at or below MSRP. You may have to 'drive a little to save a lot' (which is what I did when I chose to buy my F150 from a dealer in IA), but that option is out there in more than one place.

ADM is a purely 'because we can get it' / 'greed' fee, totally separate from other scams like dealer add-on accessories or doc fees (the latter usually regulated by the state). It's up to consumers to keep 'em from getting it by exercising the right-to-walk.

Originally Posted by MarkinVan

"The 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning will now start at $51,974 US, a 30-percent increase over its original MSRP." Road & Track today.

There's lots of press about this announcement today, here's one such article if folks care to read more detail about the situation.

While bummer for folks with future Lightning acquisition aspirations, note this statement regarding those who have already placed orders:

"Ford said that customers who have already ordered the truck and are awaiting delivery, as well as commercial and government order holders, will not be subject to the price increase. This means the new price will only apply to new orders of the Lightning ..."

Inflation happens for a number of reasons, but in this case there's still price protection in play for those buyers who have already made a commitment with an attendant agreed price expectation.

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by Centex

There was a time when ETI would build a 'custom' trailer incorporating (within limits) 'off-menu' alterations, additions, and/or deletions to a buyer's specs. I think it's pretty clear that now ETI only offers trailers with a finite set of defined options (the à la carte menu, if you will) - you can choose among those many defined options to get a trailer 'customized' for you but there's no 'off-menu' work done at all any more.

The 'custom order' scheme offered by Ford, GM, and a few other auto manufacturers offers a large but finite number of defined options (again, the à la carte menu) and the buyer can order a vehicle built by the manufacturer having (within limits) the particular options the buyer selects for their 'build'.

In both cases there's lots of items on the à la carte menu but both buyer and manufacturer are bound by that finite menu created by the manufacturer. IMO the two are therefore very analogous in terms of degree of 'customization' offered the buyer and managed by the manufacturer. And since there's inevitably a lead-time, often long, between placing a 'custom order' and build / delivery of the product in both cases, there's analogous risk of inflation, labor, logistics, and component supply chain issues during that process. The scale of the business and the volume of transaction may differ, but I suggest that all of the same 'pieces' are 'in-play' for both buyer and manufacturer.

IMO it's interesting and noteworthy that Ford, in various public announcements about long-term corporate strategy, has expressed the goal of significantly increasing the % of sales via the 'custom order process' with an attendant reduction of the % of sales based on 'dealer stock inventory'. They've learned some hard and costly (for both corporate and dealers) lessons about the downside of having large 'stock' / speculative inventories sitting on dealer lots when markets are volatile.

To date Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, and most other Asian-based manufacturers do not offer buyers any 'custom order' scheme at all. They advertise and build vehicles with a number of 'options' / 'option bundles' as they see fit and disperse those among their dealer network. Buyers can shop that network to find the vehicle built with options closest to their preferred spec, but buyers have no 'personal customizing' opportunity at all, there is no à la carte menu for buyers at all. That scheme is analogous to many of the high-volume RV manufacturers - buyers take (or don't take) what they can find in dealer inventory but have no opportunity at all to have the manufacturer 'customize' the build to the buyer's individual preferences.

There are also a few marques in both arenas, typically priced at the very high-end market, which offer a high degree individual customization including 'off-menu' and/or true 'bespoke' builds.
_____________

Back to the price and price protection topic, I understand that it may not be possible for ETI to offer the degree of near absolute customer price protection that Ford offers. But I do think, as @MrLynn suggests, that ETI could protect their own financial condition while also offering some better-than-current degree of price protection and/or no-penalty opt-out for customers who have placed an order IF they were inclined to empathy for the plight of those customers. IMO it's all too easy to glean from the current ETI practices that they lack that empathy.

BUT, as previously stated, that is absolutely ETI's prerogative as a company, just as it is each potential buyer's prerogative to conduct or not conduct business with the Company.

Hi-
This won’t come out right-but I have at times thought about you while showering in the 5.0…
Your guidance with my shower modification is probably my favorite upgrade on the camper.

I don’t know Escapes bottom line or what things are affecting their business model but I do believe it's a bit of a different story from a multi billion dollar company.
Also, I’ll use hand built for Escape instead of custom built, no assembly line automation…

I have some long time tenants who have been there thru the last recession then covid and now this nightmare. I’ve, lets say, sheltered them from very many price increases.
Operating cost are rising fast, the tax assessor has been drooling over the soon to come increase in property tax due to the value of real-estate going up.

You want to see government working hard wave a potential tax increase in front of them. I have them knocking on my door and rental properties looking for added sheds, you name it-all to collect more. They know value will drop soon but if they can beat that drop, mo money.

Insurance, utility companies, cost of labor-on and on. My tenants are not aware of most of these things as they don’t see most of it. Many are too busy just getting by or don’t care, it’s why they choose to rent.

I am at a point where my rents are going up and are going to continue to rise, I can no longer justify my not having a decent bottom line. As to not go political, I’ll just say someone, all, eventually have to pay for…

My increases are nothing compared to what they will be paying after I sell and the new owner passes that sale price down to the tenants that they have never even met.

In my world the chickens have come home to roost and all involved will be paying more-much more.

Escape will find someone who can afford the cost as I will find a tenant who can pay the higher rent. But things can in no way remain the same for people or companies with all the-changes taking place.

[MarkinVan]

[QUOTE=Ooshkaboo;431691]Hi-
This won’t come out right-but I have at times thought about you while showering in the 5.0…
Your guidance with my shower modification is probably my favorite upgrade on the camper.

Just have to ask, what is the shower modification that is probably your favourite upgrade?

Thanks!

[MrLynn]

[QUOTE=MarkinVan;431729]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

Hi-
This won’t come out right-but I have at times thought about you while showering in the 5.0…
Your guidance with my shower modification is probably my favorite upgrade on the camper.

Just have to ask, what is the shower modification that is probably your favourite upgrade?

Thanks!

I have the same question. And how do you avoid filling up the grey tank? Shower outside?

(Completely off-topic, but I think we've beaten this one to death, anyhow—at least as long as no politics is involved.)

[BritCanuck]

Originally Posted by oldwave

I would expect a fully equipped 23 to be near 70,000, in Bigfoot territory

A fully equipped 5.0 is over $70k if you go with the full Lithium options.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by MarkinVan

... Just have to ask, what is the shower modification that is probably your favourite upgrade? ...

Originally Posted by MrLynn

I have the same question....

My only posted shower mod, presumably what @Ooshkaboo referenced (glad you found it helpful), is described in this post.

back to thread topic .....

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I'm not sure if it relates to Ford but as of this week local dealers for some brands are adding on a $1,000 fee. Not a so-called documentation fee but an additional one on the basis that the MSRP is only that, a suggested price, and that they're free to charge whatever price they want. In this market they can get away with it. Hopefully for not too long. Crazy times.

Ron

Here in the states I see dealers routinely adding 2500 to 5000 up costs to msrp
I will not buy from them

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by oldwave

Here in the states I see dealers routinely adding 2500 to 5000 up costs to msrp
I will not buy from them

My 2nd eldest was starting an internship and needed a car. We went used shopping and I quickly determined that I did not like anything available at her budget. I eventually determined the best thing for her was for me to buy a new car and lease it to her for the three years she needs it. She'll probably just buy me out at the end.


Anyway, I go to the Honda dealer, look at a Civic. They have none (or anything else) in stock. He shows me the 'inbound' build list and says: "Pick anything on this list, and you can have it at MSRP in 2-3 months. Or, you can buy a used one, same car, 2 years old with 19,000 miles for $3000 MORE than a new one."


I asked why anyone would pay $3000 more for a 2-year old car, and he says "Because you can have it today."


Fortunately, I could wait 3 months for a new one. But this is how the car market is working right now.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

I go to the Honda dealer, look at a Civic. They have none (or anything else) in stock. He shows me the 'inbound' build list and says: "Pick anything on this list, and you can have it at MSRP in 2-3 months.

Or, you could travel a bit to another state, buy a Civic that's in stock, and for less than MSRP. The Honda dealers here in South Texas has cars in stock and aren't sticking it to the buyer. For instance, a nearby dealer in San Marcos has 8 new Civics in stock. Just saying.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by oldwave

I would expect a fully equipped 23 to be near 70,000, in Bigfoot territory

Bigfoots are still in the lead. New 25s are more like $90k now.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by MrLynn

Bigfoots are still in the lead. New 25s are more like $90k now.

Funny I’m paying 68 for a well equipped 2023
Dealers discount unlike Escape