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Old 06-28-2015, 05:37 PM   #41
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Kinda like the old ciggy jingle....."me & my Wrangler, we got a real good thing-yeah!"
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
I would be cautious about this as an information source. A few seconds of reading in, I hit this absolutely incorrect statement:
Quote:
The towing angle for a single axle is not important, so it doesn’t matter if the trailer is level as the trailer is able to rotate on its axle.
Tilting a single-axle trailer in pitch (nose up or down) changes the position of the centre of mass enough to make a noticeable difference in the weight distribution between axle and tongue, affecting stability. In some trailers it also causes aerodynamic problems.

The content goes further downhill from there. It does have some valid points, but I don't see how someone looking for basic information would be able to distinguish the information from garbage.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:03 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Also dual axles give you twice the braking power...
If you mean ability to absorb heat, yes, twice the number of brake drums (if they are the same size, as they are in Escapes) means twice the braking energy dissipated before overheating interferes with brake operation. This would be really significant if racing, or if dragging the brakes down a mountain grade instead of properly engine-braking.

The maximum amount of braking force is normally limited by tire traction, and traction is limited by weight. Spreading the weight between two axles would help traction a little due to more tire tread on the road, unless the load is imperfectly split between axles. In the reality of a tandem-axle trailer, it probably won't brake any more effectively than a single-axle trailer at all - certainly not twice as well.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:09 PM   #44
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Also dual axles give you twice the braking power...
And two more tires when it's time to replace....
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:12 PM   #45
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Don't forget another set of brake pads and bearings to check and service.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:17 PM   #46
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I remember cars with brakes only in the rear, took a lot effort to stop. Once 4 wheel brakes were standard, safety increased.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:31 PM   #47
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And two more tires when it's time to replace....
Just be thankful it's not a diesel pusher with what--ten?--huge tires to replace. I don't even want to contemplate that.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:51 PM   #48
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I remember cars with brakes only in the rear, took a lot effort to stop. Once 4 wheel brakes were standard, safety increased.
Jim,
Yes that's true! But they put another set of brakes on the same size and weight vehicle, in the case of the trailers the size and weight has increased.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:02 PM   #49
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The 21 has a no-crawl over permanent bed. That and the slightly greater aisle width so you can pass each other without stepping on the dog made it for us. First time the grandkids overnighted (sleeping on the dinette bed) they wanted to know if they could move in. IMO, the 21 tows a LOT better than our 17 Casita and is much easier to back up as the axles are farther from the hitch, so it reacts slower than a shorter trailer.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:03 PM   #50
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I remember cars with brakes only in the rear, took a lot effort to stop. Once 4 wheel brakes were standard, safety increased.
Jim, we know you're older than some of us, but I'm surprised that you were driving cars made in the 1920's. I think maybe what you are remembering was in the introduction of power-assisted braking, using vacuum boosters... or perhaps the introduction of disk brakes (on the front only at first), which normally require power-assist to be usable.

Obviously, all of the weight of the vehicle must be used for braking traction to have good braking... but a single-axle trailer does have all of its weight on the wheels with brakes. A car with brakes only two wheels would indeed stop poorly, as would a tandem-axle trailer with brakes on only one axle. Motocycles stop very well (if you can control them), using only two brakes because all of their weight is on only two wheels.

A typical 18-wheeler has five axles. It does not stop over twice as well as a car or truck with two axles. Due to the hard high-mileage rubber compounds of the tires, the difficulty of balancing ten brakes, and relatively undersized brakes (compared to the mass of the truck and trailer), they don't brake very well at all.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:05 PM   #51
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Just be thankful it's not a diesel pusher with what--ten?--huge tires to replace. I don't even want to contemplate that.
Six on most Class A motorhomes (even diesel pushers) and eight on the biggest ones (the extra axle only has two tires in almost all cases). There are some huge Class C motorhomes with tandem rear axles each with dual wheels, so that would be ten. I agree - if my motorhome ever needs new tires (six), I shudder to think of the price.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:23 PM   #52
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I got 7 foot itis! I've really enjoyed my Scamp over the past dozen plus years. It was/is a great weekend (long weekend) trailer. No one has had more fun than me. BUT, it is the wrong layout for long term desires. I want to be more like Jon V and less like the younger me The longest I went out in the Scamp was 2-1/2 weeks. By the end of the second week, I was going nutz. Storage was a PITA. I hate totes. They're always in the way or in the tug! There's no comparison between a 13 foot cabin (and storage) and one nearly 20 feet, and all the storage... SWOON.

The interesting part is there's only a few short inches in length between my 16' Scamp and pickup (6.5 box) and Ten Forward (also 6.5 box). But, I get almost seven more feet of living space. THAT is huge.

Ten Forward is nearly a year old and I'm just as thrilled today as the day I picked up the trailer in Sumas last July.

Best of luck on your decision.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
I would be cautious about this as an information source. A few seconds of reading in, I hit this absolutely incorrect statement:

Tilting a single-axle trailer in pitch (nose up or down) changes the position of the centre of mass enough to make a noticeable difference in the weight distribution between axle and tongue, affecting stability. In some trailers it also causes aerodynamic problems.

The content goes further downhill from there. It does have some valid points, but I don't see how someone looking for basic information would be able to distinguish the information from garbage.
Absolutely. Trailers tow best when they're balanced and level, or in the case of a single axle, perhaps even a bit tongue heavy. A tail heavy single axle is going to sway, and sometimes badly.
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:07 AM   #54
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Balanced being 10-15% of the trailer weight.
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:15 AM   #55
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Went from a 17 to a 21...

Jill,

Back to your original question, obviously this is a decision you need to make your self, and I strongly suggest you see the trailers in person if you can. But here is why we migrated from our 17b (which we liked a lot) to our 21 (which we love). [LIST=1][*]In the spring of 2013 we went on a month long trip. However due to the weather and some health issues, we ended up spending much more time in the trailer than on our previous trips. In the 17 we had to plan our maneuvers so that only one of us was up at a time. In the 21 we can literally "dance in the aisle". Very nice on a rainy day.[*]We much prefer having the dining area in the rear of the trailer so that we can enjoy the view. Most often we end up backing into the camp site, with the tow vehicle up front. We know what the back side of our Highlander looks like. [*]We like having a trailer with a "bedroom wing" and a "kitchen/dining wing" It makes it easy for one of us to stay up late or get up early. without disturbing the other one. [*]The bathroom in the 21 is palatial compared to the 17b.

As a result of our change, we had to buy a new tow vehicle -- we sold our Sienna mini-van (which I loved) and got a Highlander (which I am at best lukewarm about). But on our recent trip to Osoyoos we averaged 15 mpg. About the same as we got pulling the 17b with the Sienna. We are still very happy with our decision to buy a larger trailer. We really enjoy the extra room. We often say that if something happened to one of us, the survivor might downsize to a 17b again, but for the two of us, the 21 is the way to go. If we were to buy a 19, we would probably opt to put the bed in the front.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:38 PM   #56
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Thank you everyone for your great input on this thread. In the end we decided to stick with the 21. Our reasons for doing so
- You always hear about people order up to a bigger trailer, but never the opposite. There must be a reason for that!
- We hope to keep this for 10 years or more. So having to buy a new truck isn't such a big deal when you think that we'll get 10 years of use out of it, even if that use is only for towing.
- We intend to do some long trips of maybe up to 2 or 3 months. I'm sure in those trips we will appreciate the extra space and comforts of the 21 (ex. being able to stand up in the shower!)
- Sleep is REALLY important to us and therefore the permanent bed will be much appreciated rather than sleeping on the converted dinette in the 17

There were other reasons but I think this is a pretty good list. Thank you to everyone who contributed here. You all provided some very thoughtful and helpful advice!
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:51 PM   #57
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I think you'll be happy in the long run Jill.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:55 PM   #58
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You will enjoy your trailer.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:34 PM   #59
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Sounds like a great plan Jill.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:50 PM   #60
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I originally missed this post as we were in Florida, but in reading it I guess Jill isn't the only one who's glad they chose and are sticking with a 21. Actually I kind of toyed with the idea of backing off to a 19 for a little bit, but I know Cathy wouldn't have gone for it. Loren
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