Help with battery issue, please

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Background: I'm a Luddite who doesn't understand much about my trailer systems. My 2022 5.0 has the full solar package from ETI, including 2 lithium batteries. Since May, I've boon-docked quite a bit, maybe 50 nights, along with many nights with hookups. Everything seemed to work as expected, with battery levels getting down no lower than 70% by morning, then charging back up to 100% by evening.

Problem: Three nights ago, I used a lot of power both evening & morning, so that the battery level was down to 28% by morning. (Oops, not supposed to go below 30%!)

Due to clouds, a tree, & low winter sun angle, the power level had only returned to 65% by evening. When I turned off the inverter that night, the battery level was just over 50%. With nothing plugged in, & the fridge on propane, I'm thinking that the only things drawing power were the furnace & fridge starters, the propane monitor, & the WeBoost. (In this situation in the past, the battery level only went down a few per cent overnight.) An hour later, the batteries seemed to die: the furnace & fridge shut down, the propane monitor went out, & the battery monitor wouldn't register anything. 50% to nothing in an hour seemed inexplicable.

Yesterday morning, after driving 1 1/2 hours with early morning winter sun, the battery monitor read 100% by 9:00; that seemed like a fast charge from 0-100%.

Last night, I shut everything down about 10:00, & the battery level read 80% - again, everything off that could be turned off. About 5:00 this morning, the batteries seemed to die again - furnace shut off, etc. (Though having a hookup here, I'd run on battery power to see what would happen.) When I plugged in, the battery monitor went immediately to 100%, which seems odd to me.

I was thinking that perhaps the battery monitor was going bad, but with the furnace, fridge & propane monitors shutting down, it seems like there really was a loss of power.

Any thoughts or simple troubleshooting (something a Luddite can do) would be most appreciated.

Also, does anyone happen to know an RV tech in Lone Pine, CA, where I am now (ha ha), or near Fresno or Lancaster or Palm Springs, places I'll be soon?

[C&G in FL]

Lorraine, how are you coming up with these percentages?

[SageRpod]

Hi Lorraine, sorry to hear about your Battery issues. We have the an almost identical setup with the exception of 4 Li batteries, not two. I am assuming you have the same Victron controller we have.

First, I have learned the only way to know for sure that your batteries are fully charged is when the charge state is Float. Like you, mine will read 100% after being drawn down overnight but in full sun and I know there is no way they could have charged that fast. If the app is indicating they are still in Bulk or Absorption that tells me they are not topped off. Only when the app indicates Float do I know that they are truly 100%.

As for what is drawing down you batteries so quickly, there a couple of things that will do that. One is your absorption fridge. After a bad experience with a previous camper, I have developed a nervous twitch and check that the fridge is in Gas mode several times a day. The other is your emergency brake systems. Check that the pin is fully in the breakaway box and that your trailer brake wires are all secured. Our heater ran constantly on a Christmas boondock trip with temps in the upper 20's and it only drew down the batteries 6%-8%. I really doubt it could be your furnace draining the batteries. I can't speak for a WeeBoost, but our Starlink draws a considerable amount of power. We make a habit to turn our inverter off before we go to bed.

Hope that helps.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Lorraine, how are you coming up with these percentages?

Hi C & G,

Thanks for responding>

I'm reading them off of the Victron battery monitor. Not really understanding the amps & watts & volts, my assumption is that the % reading there is the % of charge left. Is that not correct?

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

Hi Lorraine, sorry to hear about your Battery issues. We have the an almost identical setup with the exception of 4 Li batteries, not two. I am assuming you have the same Victron controller we have.

First, I have learned the only way to know for sure that your batteries are fully charged is when the charge state is Float. Like you, mine will read 100% after being drawn down overnight but in full sun and I know there is no way they could have charged that fast. If the app is indicating they are still in Bulk or Absorption that tells me they are not topped off. Only when the app indicates Float do I know that they are truly 100%.

As for what is drawing down you batteries so quickly, there a couple of things that will do that. One is your absorption fridge. After a bad experience with a previous camper, I have developed a nervous twitch and check that the fridge is in Gas mode several times a day. The other is your emergency brake systems. Check that the pin is fully in the breakaway box and that your trailer brake wires are all secured. Our heater ran constantly on a Christmas boondock trip with temps in the upper 20's and it only drew down the batteries 6%-8%. I really doubt it could be your furnace draining the batteries. I can't speak for a WeeBoost, but our Starlink draws a considerable amount of power. We make a habit to turn our inverter off before we go to bed.

Hope that helps.

Hi Sage Rpod,

Thanks for responding.

I've not used the app, and have just been depending on the Victron monitor on the wall of the trailer. Do I need to use the app to monitor the batteries? Do I need to understand "Float" & "Bulk" & "Absorption"? (My inner Luddite is rebelling!)

I too regularly check that the fridge is still in gas mode whenever the trailer isn't hooked up, so that shouldn't be the problem.

The pin seems very secure in the breakaway box; thanks for the suggestion to check that.

I don't know how to check that the brake wires are secure, but a guy I trust did check/service the wheels, brakes, etc in September & reattached a brake wire then. This gives me somewhere to start should I end up taking it to tech.

My habit too is to always turn off the inverter when not actively using what I think of as "real electricity" as opposed to the items that automatically pull from the batteries (furnace, fridge, propane monitor, WeBoost). I was told that the WeBoost uses very little power.

Thanks again!

[Vermilye]

It is almost impossible to diagnose these kind of problems without being there, but some suggestions:

The jump from low state of charge to full in a short time, or when first plugged into a power pedestal is not normal.

As Gino or Linda (SageRpod) mentioned, it is worth checking the solar controller section of the Victron app to see what charging stage the controller is in. If you scroll to the left when the main page is open it will show the charging stages the controller is going through (or went through) - see the example below. If your batteries started out 10% down from full or lower, and it doesn't show all three stages, you are not at 100% State of Charge no matter what the Smart Shunt shows unless you have been plugged into a power pedestal for a couple of hours. The reason the Smart Shunt could be wrong is it was not properly set up for the size & charging values for your batteries.

While looking at the Smart Shunt, check what the current shows. With plenty of sun on the panels it should be a positive number. After the sun goes down it should switch to a negative number (or if you add a heavy load such as the furnace or inverter). If you don't have the furnace running or your inverter on, it should be a small negative number, ie a couple of amps. For example, my idle current with the radio on and a couple of LED lamps, (no furnace) is a little over -1 amp. An absorption refrigerator can add an additional couple of amps when the gas valve is open, a compressor even more. If yours is much higher than this, something unusual is drawing current. Absorption refrigerator on DC, tank heaters, etc. Again, if you have a compressor refrigerator, that might draw enough with only 2 lithium batteries to cause a problem when there is limited sun and no power hook ups.

Pulling fuses one at a time can determine what circuit is causing the problem.

The State of Charge % is only accurate if the Smart Shunt has been set up correctly for your battery type & size. Unless the parameters are correct, each charging cycle can decrease the accuracy of the State of Charge.

[Ooshkaboo]

Your camper may have had the same gremlin doing the electrical work as mine.
It was a bit of a headache, none of my troubleshooting was working, then I bumped into to the problem…

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by Lorraine Pittsburgh

I've not used the app, and have just been depending on the Victron monitor on the wall of the trailer. Do I need to use the app to monitor the batteries? Do I need to understand "Float" & "Bulk" & "Absorption"? (My inner Luddite is rebelling!)

The app is certainly helpful. It is a great source of information and will be very helpful in channeling your inner geek !

The different states of charge are:
Bulk = the solar charger is pushing as much charge into the batteries as it can.
Absorption = the battery is approaching full charge and the charger is throttling down so to speak.
Float = Your batteries are fully charges and the charger is sending very little energy to them.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

It is almost impossible to diagnose these kind of problems without being there, but some suggestions:

The jump from low state of charge to full in a short time, or when first plugged into a power pedestal is not normal.

As Gino or Linda (SageRpod) mentioned, it is worth checking the solar controller section of the Victron app to see what charging stage the controller is in. If you scroll to the left when the main page is open it will show the charging stages the controller is going through (or went through) - see the example below. If your batteries started out 10% down from full or lower, and it doesn't show all three stages, you are not at 100% State of Charge no matter what the Smart Shunt shows unless you have been plugged into a power pedestal for a couple of hours. The reason the Smart Shunt could be wrong is it was not properly set up for the size & charging values for your batteries.

While looking at the Smart Shunt, check what the current shows. With plenty of sun on the panels it should be a positive number. After the sun goes down it should switch to a negative number (or if you add a heavy load such as the furnace or inverter). If you don't have the furnace running or your inverter on, it should be a small negative number, ie a couple of amps. For example, my idle current with the radio on and a couple of LED lamps, (no furnace) is a little over -1 amp. An absorption refrigerator can add an additional couple of amps when the gas valve is open, a compressor even more. If yours is much higher than this, something unusual is drawing current. Absorption refrigerator on DC, tank heaters, etc. Again, if you have a compressor refrigerator, that might draw enough with only 2 lithium batteries to cause a problem when there is limited sun and no power hook ups.

Pulling fuses one at a time can determine what circuit is causing the problem.

The State of Charge % is only accurate if the Smart Shunt has been set up correctly for your battery type & size. Unless the parameters are correct, each charging cycle can decrease the accuracy of the State of Charge.

Hi Jon,

Hope that you are well. Thanks for weighing in.

Knowing me a bit, you might guess that I'm only processing part of what you wrote.

I've put together that the Smart Shunt is what I'm calling the battery monitor. After unplugging & with everything turned off, the reading is -1.75A (no sun now!). If I followed what you said, that should show that nothing is drawing an unusual amount of power & draining the batteries. Correct?

My fridge is an absorption type, so that eliminates a compressor fridge issue.

I've also gathered that the % reading on the battery monitor doesn't, or maybe doesn't mean much. Is there a way for me to tell if it has been set up correctly? (I assume that ETI should have done this?)

I've noodled with the app a bit, but don't know what I'm looking at. Will pull out the instructions tomorrow & try to learn something about it. In the meantime. Here's a screenshot my the app similar to the one you posted. The info for today won't mean anything since I hooked up at 5:00 this morning after the batteries died.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

Your camper may have had the same gremlin doing the electrical work as mine.
It was a bit of a headache, none of my troubleshooting was working, then I bumped into to the problem…

Yikes, even someone as ignorant as me knows that doesn't look right! So sorry you received your trailer like that.

I'm thinking that my issue is different given that it's intermittent, but do appreciate you weighing in. :-)

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

The app is certainly helpful. It is a great source of information and will be very helpful in channeling your inner geek !

The different states of charge are:
Bulk = the solar charger is pushing as much charge into the batteries as it can.
Absorption = the battery is approaching full charge and the charger is throttling down so to speak.
Float = Your batteries are fully charges and the charger is sending very little energy to them.

Thank you so much for the explanation! It's a sure bet that I have no inner geek to channel, but I'll try to sort out the basics of this app. :-)

[C&G in FL]

Lorraine, I originally asked how you knew the state of charge of the batteries. The Victron shunt, if functioning properly, tells no lies. Since you downloaded the app, I’m guessing that it is in agreement with the readings on your wall mounted monitor. You mentioned the “compressor refrigerator” issue. I can run my Norcold compressor refrigerator for 24 hours on two fully charged 100 amp hour Battleborn lithium batteries and after 24 hours I am at 78% state of charge. So I will ask a couple of potentially dumb questions. First, are you sure the inverter is actually off when you switch it off? If you have the “everything” option and you have a microwave oven, does the clock on the microwave go dark? Could it be a faulty inverter switch? Second, thinking outside the box, I am assuming ETI installed your lithium batteries, but I do not know what brand they use. Good lithium batteries have a built-in battery control module. I’m wondering if your problems could be resulting from the batteries themselves. The quick recharge cycles you mentioned and the overnight discharges seem to me, suspicious. As Jon stated, hard to diagnose remotely, but again I am making an assumption that this is a recent problem and at an earlier time the system was working fine. Like anything else, lithium batteries are subject to malfunction.

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by Lorraine Pittsburgh

Yikes, even someone as ignorant as me knows that doesn't look right! So sorry you received your trailer like that.

I'm thinking that my issue is different given that it's intermittent, but do appreciate you weighing in. :-)

Mine also was intermittent, the picture was taken after I discovered the source, the wire was connected but very loose. Sorry for not being clear on that.
To go into detail about the rabbit hole it sent me down and the inconvenience caused by the loose connection would be unhelpful to you as yours could be a different wire, or not the problem at all.
Not to mention money I spent possibly unnecessarily, I upgraded my inverter. In the summer I run my AC off of it when needed so maybe it wasn’t a total waste of an upgrade.
So no regrets, as I now know so much more about my trailer’s electrical system.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Lorraine Pittsburgh

...
My habit too is to always turn off the inverter when not actively using what I think of as "real electricity" as opposed to the items that automatically pull from the batteries (furnace, fridge, propane monitor, WeBoost). I was told that the WeBoost uses very little power. ...


A word of caution if I might. WeBoost uses enough power to be a problem when measured over a couple of days. If I recall from another post, it pulls in the neighborhood of 50-75 watts (someone correct me please). plus the electronics of the other devices - fridge, monitor, etc - also pull a small but significant amount of power constantly. This all adds up and the batteries must be recharged to keep supplying this power.


...

I've put together that the Smart Shunt is what I'm calling the battery monitor. After unplugging & with everything turned off, the reading is -1.75A (no sun now!). If I followed what you said, that should show that nothing is drawing an unusual amount of power & draining the batteries. Correct?
...

Again, a note of caution: You say "everything off" but yet the monitor shows a drain of -1.75 Amps. This -1.75 Amps is significant when considering a number of days without solar or other charging. I would suggest you discover what is pulling this power - and it could quite possibly be the WeBoost, fridge, monitor and other gadgets. That amount of drain would flatten a single high-quality lithium battery in about 2 1/2 days roughly.

I have added some comments in blue above.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Lorraine, I originally asked how you knew the state of charge of the batteries. The Victron shunt, if functioning properly, tells no lies. Since you downloaded the app, I’m guessing that it is in agreement with the readings on your wall mounted monitor. You mentioned the “compressor refrigerator” issue. I can run my Norcold compressor refrigerator for 24 hours on two fully charged 100 amp hour Battleborn lithium batteries and after 24 hours I am at 78% state of charge. So I will ask a couple of potentially dumb questions. First, are you sure the inverter is actually off when you switch it off? If you have the “everything” option and you have a microwave oven, does the clock on the microwave go dark? Could it be a faulty inverter switch? Second, thinking outside the box, I am assuming ETI installed your lithium batteries, but I do not know what brand they use. Good lithium batteries have a built-in battery control module. I’m wondering if your problems could be resulting from the batteries themselves. The quick recharge cycles you mentioned and the overnight discharges seem to me, suspicious. As Jon stated, hard to diagnose remotely, but again I am making an assumption that this is a recent problem and at an earlier time the system was working fine. Like anything else, lithium batteries are subject to malfunction.

Hi C & G,

You made the caveat that the Victron shunt tells no lies, "if functioning properly". Jon V indicated that it needs to be configured for my particular set up, so it seems to be questionable whether it is functioning properly.

I did download the app, but haven't done anything with it; until now, it seemed to me that the monitor gave me enough info. Am about to noodle around with the app to see what my brain can figure out. A question on the app: There are 2 devices listed, the Smart Monitor & the MPPT. Could the Smart Monitor reading on the app be different than that of the monitor on the wall? I'm assuming that the two are connected & could only give the same readings.

To answer your first question, yes, everything goes off when the inverter is switched off (micro wave, anything plugged in). Doesn't seem like a dumb question at all - one more potential issue eliminated.

Re your battery question: ETI did install their complete solar package including the batteries (2022). Not sure what brand they are, but am about to try to open up the battery box to see if the connections look solid, & will see what brand they are. Since this issue is a rare occurrence, it seems to me unlikely to be the batteries themselves are bad, but will have them checked out if some of the likely possible problems are eliminated.

Thank you so much for thinking along with me on this - much appreciated.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

Mine also was intermittent, the picture was taken after I discovered the source, the wire was connected but very loose. Sorry for not being clear on that.
To go into detail about the rabbit hole it sent me down and the inconvenience caused by the loose connection would be unhelpful to you as yours could be a different wire, or not the problem at all.
Not to mention money I spent possibly unnecessarily, I upgraded my inverter. In the summer I run my AC off of it when needed so maybe it wasn’t a total waste of an upgrade.
So no regrets, as I now know so much more about my trailer’s electrical system.

Hi Ooshkaboo,

Ah, got it. I'll try to open up my battery box this morning & see if all of the connections look solid. Seems basic enough that even I might manage it!

Glad that you got your system going & are happy with your inverter upgrade.

Thanks again for weighing in - all thoughts appreciated!

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

A word of caution if I might. WeBoost uses enough power to be a problem when measured over a couple of days. If I recall from another post, it pulls in the neighborhood of 50-75 watts (someone correct me please). plus the electronics of the other devices - fridge, monitor, etc - also pull a small but significant amount of power constantly. This all adds up and the batteries must be recharged to keep supplying this power.
...
Again, a note of caution: You say "everything off" but yet the monitor shows a drain of -1.75 Amps. This -1.75 Amps is significant when considering a number of days without solar or other charging. I would suggest you discover what is pulling this power - and it could quite possibly be the WeBoost, fridge, monitor and other gadgets. That amount of drain would flatten a single high-quality lithium battery in about 2 1/2 days roughly.[/I][/I]
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Alan,

Thanks so much for your input, knowledgeable & detailed as always.

I think that I've disconnected the WeBoost - at least the green light on the box went out when a wire was disconnected. It seems that most folks love their WeBoost, but I've never been able to tell that it's doing anything, so it doesn't pain me to disconnect it.

On your second point, I'll check again tonight to see what the drain is without the WeBoost, then will turn off the fridge to see what that is pulling. I'm assuming that there isn't an easy way to isolate the other items like the monitors.

[fudge_brownie]

I like seeing the screen shot from the Victron. I live and die on that screen when we are boondocking. We usually camp without power for two weeks on two occasions during the summer.

What immediately caught my eye was that you are adding power to your batteries, these are the yield numbers. This is what the solar panel is delivering each day. However, the batteries are not fully charging. How to tell? Look at the graph from four days ago, use the image you provided not the current screen. See the three levels of color on the graph. The white is bulk, the gray is absorption and the blue is float. Float, the top level of the daily graph, is good, it means that your batteries have fully charged during the previous two levels and it is just putting a small charge in to keep them topped off.

The batteries are not getting fully charged, they are getting a charge because of the yield levels but the past three days they never get to that final float level. It appears that you are using more than your solar panels can supply. What could that be? I would go back over the suggestions already made. Refrigerator is one, inverter another, a space heater? Something plugged into a USB port like a laptop. You need to investigate what is different.

[Lorraine Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

I like seeing the screen shot from the Victron. I live and die on that screen when we are boondocking. We usually camp without power for two weeks on two occasions during the summer.

What immediately caught my eye was that you are adding power to your batteries, these are the yield numbers. This is what the solar panel is delivering each day. However, the batteries are not fully charging. How to tell? Look at the graph from four days ago, use the image you provided not the current screen. See the three levels of color on the graph. The white is bulk, the gray is absorption and the blue is float. Float, the top level of the daily graph, is good, it means that your batteries have fully charged during the previous two levels and it is just putting a small charge in to keep them topped off.

The batteries are not getting fully charged, they are getting a charge because of the yield levels but the past three days they never get to that final float level. It appears that you are using more than your solar panels can supply. What could that be? I would go back over the suggestions already made. Refrigerator is one, inverter another, a space heater? Something plugged into a USB port like a laptop. You need to investigate what is different.

Hi Paul,

Thanks so much for weighing in on this. Your clear explanation made this graph understandable & meaningful for me.

Questions: I was hooked up all day yesterday, but the bar for that day stayed in the white/bulk zone; I'd assumed that being hooked up for that long would fully charge the batteries? Does this graph just show what is being added from the solar panels, or would it include power added from a hookup?

[Centex]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

If I recall from another post, it pulls in the neighborhood of 50-75 watts (someone correct me please)

I suppose it might vary by model but FWIW the WeBoost Drive Reach is rated 12V @ 1.8A (~22W).

Yep, as with all loads that can add-up over a period of days if left on all the time.

It'd be interesting to know what it actually pulls per the Victron shunt when it is the only load.

Good luck with your troubleshooting / continuing education, Lorraine!