Microwave outlet replacement

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

It was a lot of years ago when I wrote the exam, and only as part of my training, not to become an electrician, but back then the Canadian Electrical Code required a dedicated circuit for microwaves. Rule26-704(9) That was based on the general rule that all appliances, like fridges required their own circuits.
Ron

Did some Google research on Canadian code and found this:
26-720 [d] Each receptacle installed in a cupboard, wall cabinet or enclosure for the use of a microwave oven in accordance with rule 26-710 [i] shall be supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets and this circuit shall not be considered as forming part of the circuits required under rule 26-722 [b]

Looks like CEC code requires a dedicated microwave circuit paralleling NEC code.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Did some Google research on Canadian code and found this:
26-720 [d] Each receptacle installed in a cupboard, wall cabinet or enclosure for the use of a microwave oven in accordance with rule 26-710 [i] shall be supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets and this circuit shall not be considered as forming part of the circuits required under rule 26-722 [b]

Looks like CEC code requires a dedicated microwave circuit paralleling NEC code.

That makes sense, and Canadian residential kitchens do have dedicated microwave circuits.

A question might be whether CSA Z240 RV requires everything in the codes which it references, or only those specific provisions which it lists.

Another question might be whether or not RVs in Canada are required to follow the Canadian Electrical Code, and similarly whether or not RVs in the U.S. are required to follow the National Electrical Code. They're not buildings; they're more like very big appliances which get plugged in sometimes, or very well equipped vehicles.

[Slickheadhunter]

I have no idea about any of the electrical codes( completely electrically ignorant! ) but I know for a fact the microwave is routed through the outside GFI outlet, and not on its own breaker. I'm just super happy it's fixed.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That makes sense, and Canadian residential kitchens do have dedicated microwave circuits.

A question might be whether CSA Z240 RV requires everything in the codes which it references, or only those specific provisions which it lists.

Another question might be whether or not RVs in Canada are required to follow the Canadian Electrical Code, and similarly whether or not RVs in the U.S. are required to follow the National Electrical Code. They're not buildings; they're more like very big appliances which get plugged in sometimes, or very well equipped vehicles.

I don't know about Canada but here are the rules for the US. The NEC is merely a guideline; each local jurisdiction has the authority to accept all, part, or none of the NEC code and is the only legally binding authority in regard to electrical code requirements. The adopted local code is all that matters from a compliance standpoint.

As a RV travels between local jurisdictions, local codes can vary from town to town. The only RV specific NEC code is in Article 551, Recreational Vehicles and Recreational Vehicle Parks. Even Article 551 has to be adopted by the local jurisdiction to be enforceable.

So common sense has to prevail when deciding if NEC code applies to how the wiring is done in a RV. NEC (and CEC) codes were derived from knowledge obtained from reviewing past failures which caused damage or death. It is a code which when followed will prevent making electrical mistakes that could cause you harm. Given that following electrical code will protect you, which codes should you ignore?

[tdf-texas]

I want to apologize to the OP of this thread for the side conversation on electrical codes. As you can probably tell by now, I am used to giving class lectures on electrical codes and how they apply.

To the OP.

I would try to get your wiring looked at by someone who understands wiring requirements. Having the microwave circuit with multiple outlets may haunt you with spurious trips on the occasions that too much load was applied to the breaker supplying the microwave. At the same time, they might want to look at the rest of the wiring - that wire should never have been wrapped around a screw. What else is there that might give you grief?

[steve dunham]

I added a separate 20 amp circuit to the kitchen and split the microwave off from the kitchen circuit
I also taught code classes for journeyman electricians required to renew their state electrical license so I can empathize with TDF
I helped a buddy rewire part of his brand new $50 K sticky trailer .
His whole kitchen , living room , outside receptacle and part of the bedroom was on
ONE 15 amp circuit . Made it tough to make coffee and toast at the same time

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Slickheadhunter

I have no idea about any of the electrical codes( completely electrically ignorant! ) but I know for a fact the microwave is routed through the outside GFI outlet, and not on its own breaker. I'm just super happy it's fixed.

Good job finding the issue. I was going to suggest checking the outside GFI but didn’t think it would be wired that way.

[Slickheadhunter]

Here's a picture of the breakers and one of the metal outside outlet box from under the seat.

[Slickheadhunter]

Here's the breakers.

[Slickheadhunter]

For some reason these pictures are sideways.

The wire you see on the left goes from that outlet to a third outlet. The wire on the right with the electrical tape on it is the one going to the microwave. The screw in the center is where the wire was looped around and wore through.

[Slickheadhunter]

The wire on the left going to the third outlet is covered with a black plastic corrugated covering, which I had to stuff around the wire going into the metal box because of the sharp metal around that hole.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Yes, and to further compound the situation, Circuit # 1 has two wires on the same breaker terminal. The first time that I acquainted myself with the panel the machine screw holding them was loose, still contact, but loose.

Ron

Ron: This seems odd. When I replaced the WFCO main board my converter hot was twinned on a 15A breaker with the fridge with a “utility pigtail”. I thought this was common practice so that only one wire is under the breaker lug and then it splits to serve two items.

The instructions from Progressive Dynamics specifically said: “If the utility pigtail was used on the original installation, two short lengths of 14AWG wire and a wire nut may be used to provide the utility pigtail. DO NOT install (2) wires into the breaker.”

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Ron: This seems odd. When I replaced the WFCO main board my converter hot was twinned on a 15A breaker with the fridge with a “utility pigtail”. I thought this was common practice so that only one wire is under the breaker lug and then it splits to serve two items.

The instructions from Progressive Dynamics specifically said: “If the utility pigtail was used on the original installation, two short lengths of 14AWG wire and a wire nut may be used to provide the utility pigtail. DO NOT install (2) wires into the breaker.”

I haven't swapped out the mainboard yet, but mine has a utility pigtail coming off that breaker as well. Looks to me like two wires on that breaker wouldn't be secure.

[Slickheadhunter]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Good job finding the issue. I was going to suggest checking the outside GFI but didn’t think it would be wired that way.

I didn't either, you would think a microwave would have its own GFI outlet and have its own breaker.

[tdf-texas]

This thread reminds me of a discussion the forum went through on the quality of Escape's wiring back before I picked up my trailer. The number of splices, wires changing color from point to point, dubious layout of breakers to outlets - it is all coming back to me. My comment at that time was that if my trailer had wiring like the examples depicted in that thread, I would rewire it soon after I picked up the trailer.

Well, with few exceptions, I have rewired my trailer since I picked it up! There is not a single wire that I have not inspected and then either rerouted, or replaced, or repaired. I found loose splices, loose neutral and ground terminations, doubled wires on breakers, multiple outlets on what should have been dedicated circuits - the list goes on.

I know that the wiring on Escape trailers is probably better than that on most of the RV's built but I had hoped for more. How do we help Escape get better at this?

Maybe the answer is feedback. If Escape doesn't know what the problems are - how can they make the trailers better. It doesn't cost any more to do the job right in the first place - they just need to know what "right" is. When we find issues that don't seem to be the way they should be, we should let Escape know. They may decide that the way they do it is the correct way for them but at least give them the chance to improve by letting them know.

The OP has a trailer that seems to have the microwave circuit wired kinda strange. Looping a wire over a screw, multiple outlets on the microwave circuit, wiring entering a metal box without bushings or clamps, a microwave on a outside outlet GFCI? - Escape should be informed that there are better wiring methods than these.

Comments?

[Slickheadhunter]

Strictly from a safety standpoint I agree! The majority of people buying trailers from escape probably don't know very much about wiring( that would be me!)

I'm glad my trailer is small with minimal electrical devices!

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

This thread reminds me of a discussion the forum went through on the quality of Escape's wiring back before I picked up my trailer. The number of splices, wires changing color from point to point, dubious layout of breakers to outlets - it is all coming back to me. My comment at that time was that if my trailer had wiring like the examples depicted in that thread, I would rewire it soon after I picked up the trailer.

Well, with few exceptions, I have rewired my trailer since I picked it up! There is not a single wire that I have not inspected and then either rerouted, or replaced, or repaired. I found loose splices, loose neutral and ground terminations, doubled wires on breakers, multiple outlets on what should have been dedicated circuits - the list goes on.

I know that the wiring on Escape trailers is probably better than that on most of the RV's built but I had hoped for more. How do we help Escape get better at this?

Maybe the answer is feedback. If Escape doesn't know what the problems are - how can they make the trailers better. It doesn't cost any more to do the job right in the first place - they just need to know what "right" is. When we find issues that don't seem to be the way they should be, we should let Escape know. They may decide that the way they do it is the correct way for them but at least give them the chance to improve by letting them know.

The OP has a trailer that seems to have the microwave circuit wired kinda strange. Looping a wire over a screw, multiple outlets on the microwave circuit, wiring entering a metal box without bushings or clamps, a microwave on a outside outlet GFCI? - Escape should be informed that there are better wiring methods than these.

Comments?

There is a huge difference between meeting the code and best trade practice
The pictures posted in this thread show a prime example of a poor wiring practices
The problem seem to be one of lack of knowledge and lack of training.
The NEC code book rules are the bare minimum and Art 100 states that the code is not a design manual nor that wiring installed to code is adequate for the purpose nor that it is a training manual.
TDF is correct in that it is not more expensive to do it right but first you have to know what RIGHT is.
I did a lot of things when I worked as an electrician not because it was code but because I knew from experience , what worked best , did not lead to failures at a later date and what would work best for the customer .

[captmath]

Don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but my TA has a separate breaker box attached to the underside of the driver side seat in the corner. I had no power to one side of the trailer and had just about given up when I happened to see a box with a breaker switch up there. That was the one that was tripped.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I would try to get your wiring looked at by someone who understands wiring requirements. Having the microwave circuit with multiple outlets may haunt you with spurious trips on the occasions that too much load was applied to the breaker supplying the microwave.

Sure, but this is not a unique situation in Escapes. How many of them have a dedicated microwave circuit? Based on previous discussions, I would guess not many.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

When I replaced the WFCO main board my converter hot was twinned on a 15A breaker with the fridge with a “utility pigtail”. I thought this was common practice so that only one wire is under the breaker lug and then it splits to serve two items.”

That's what Escape did in Ron's case for "circuit #2", but not for the converter and microwave ("circuit #1").

Originally Posted by rubicon327

The instructions from Progressive Dynamics specifically said: “If the utility pigtail was used on the original installation, two short lengths of 14AWG wire and a wire nut may be used to provide the utility pigtail. DO NOT install (2) wires into the breaker.”

That looks like good advice to follow, to me. The WFCO installation instructions don't say anything on this subject.