Troubleshooting electric water heating

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by SteveSgt

Accessing this junction box required some very awkward contortions (or else disassembling the bed platform). This kind of work is more difficult in a storage yard without any hookups.

Tell me about it. I was adding a remote switch to eliminate using the exterior switch.

[*]The Weigo connectors do not adequately hold the wires, and the wire will again fall out.[/LIST]
.

I think that it's likely the wire just disconnected. I'd connect it and see what happens. Worst case, it trips the breaker.

Ron

[SteveSgt]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Tell me about it.

I contorted my way in through the outside hatch, rather than remove the mattress. If I had a to spend a lot more time in there, I would have crawled under the bed.

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I was adding a remote switch to eliminate using the exterior switch.

That's a mod I might do, but alternately I'm liking the idea of using the Parallax ALS20 automatic load shedding switch to shed the water heater load whenever the air conditioner is on.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by SteveSgt

That's a mod I might do, but alternately I'm liking the idea of using the Parallax ALS20 automatic load shedding switch to shed the water heater load whenever the air conditioner is on.

That could be handy if you're plugged in a lot. We're not but typically when we have power we only turn the water heater on a couple of times a day, get it hot and then turn it off. It's become a habit for us and the water stays hot for many hours at a time.

Ron

[Civilguy]

Nice find!

My take on it that someone put a stranded conductor into a WAGO-style connector. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

The WAGO site states:

As tool-free, lever-actuated connectors, WAGO's 221 Series Splicing Connectors easily, quickly and safely connect solid, stranded and fine-stranded conductors ranging from 24–10 AWG.

However, I reserve the right to have my doubts as to whether this is actually a good practice, particularly if there's any stress on the wire and/or vibration (as we experience in our trailers).

Personally, I'd tin both stranded conductors, (neutral and line both!), but then I tin a lot of stranded wire connections due to having had so many disappointments in this long life. (Is there a tiny violin emoji on this site?!?)

[C&G in FL]

The connectors shown in the OP’s photo are the push in type, not the lever type which are more likely to pop open and become “loose.” Correctly sized, the push in connectors which can only be used with solid wire and it is extremely unlikely that towing down thousands of miles on extreme rough roads would result in a wire popping out. Many electricians use them in home construction rather than wire nuts, and in tapping into an existing junction, I have had to replace some with a larger capacity push in Wago. Pulling the wires out requires a great deal of effort. The lever Wago connectors (not shown in the photo) are great for stranded wire because the wire will not “collapse” from the effort it takes to push them in. They are great for joining stranded wire to solid wire but for peace of mind the levers can/should be taped with a piece of electrical tape.

I would be inclined to believe someone at ETI failed to connect the neutral (white) wire.

[Civilguy]

Nice catch; looking at the picture again, it does appear the connectors are a push-in style, not a lever lock.

[SteveSgt]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

The connectors shown in the OP’s photo are the push in type, not the lever type which are more likely to pop open and become “loose.”

[Deletia...]

They are great for joining stranded wire to solid wire but for peace of mind the levers can/should be taped with a piece of electrical tape.

They are indeed the lever type, as you can see in this extreme close-up at full resolution.


It's just that the way the factory installed them, the levers were facing inward.

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

I would be inclined to believe someone at ETI failed to connect the neutral (white) wire.

That, or they didn't push the stranded wire in far enough and the clip did not hold it.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by SteveSgt

They are indeed the lever type, as you can see in this extreme close-up at full resolution.

Steve,

Thanks for the follow-up. It was in fact a nice high-resolution photo, but I misread the trail signs there. Congratulations on your find; it sure looks like you've found the root problem, which must be a good feeling.

I once spent a couple of weeks researching a rough idle on a 2001 vehicle until I (gasp!) opened the hood and actually looked. From that bold step, it only took about ten minutes to remove that intimidating new-fangled plastic cover over the engine and identify a broken vent hose which was allowing excess air into the fuel-air system. It was a good reminder to me to simply get in there and take a shot at things before overthinking them.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by SteveSgt

That, or they didn't push the stranded wire in far enough and the clip did not hold it.

I'm leaning towards that theory. One, I'd have a hard time believing that a person tasked with installing the hot water heater wouldn't hook up black to black and white to white.

Secondly it appears that the unattached white does have some indication of being slightly crushed together by the clamp. Also, at least one strand is folded backwards and never was in the clamp.

Guess we'll never know for sure but it's good to know that the problem has been isolated. Most times folks don't want to be in hot water but this is an exception.

Ron

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by Civilguy

Steve,


I once spent a couple of weeks researching a rough idle on a 2001 vehicle until I (gasp!) opened the hood and actually looked. From that bold step, it only took about ten minutes to remove that intimidating new-fangled plastic cover over the engine and identify a broken vent hose which was allowing excess air into the fuel-air system. It was a good reminder to me to simply get in there and take a shot at things before overthinking them.

My mantra, which I sadly do not always follow.

Look high, look low, look everywhere you go.

I've had car troubles, had to pull over to the side of the road, opened the hood and just stared into the engine compartment for a spell. Sure enough, I spied a loose wire. Popped it back into place and off I went.

'Ya gotta study things. Stare and look.

That mantra also does double duty when trailering our rigs.
Be advised. It's useful.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

'Ya gotta study things. Stare and look.

I have two mantras. Wiggle and jiggle and use a bigger hammer.

Ron

[HABBERDABBER]

Yes, wiggle and jiggle is often very useful. But my other mantra is....
Sometimes use YOUR HEAD, and sometimes use a bigger hammer.
They all work, sometimes.
By head, I mean to analyze the conundrum.

It's a Live & Learn life. And so it goes.

[CharlesinGA]

A 12v controlled relay can be used to switch the 120v AC on and off. It would be installed adjacent to the water heater junction box. Which is where Suburban installs their relays on the SW6DEL model (the L indicates the relay control of the 120v heat element. Then a ground and positive wire for controlling the relay would be run to a new dual switch panel....



The incoming 12v to the GAS switch would be jumpered to the ELECTRIC switch and the ground would either be grounded at the water heater or pick up a ground at the fault light.

Of course this would require running a wire with the existing 12v harness from the heater to the switch panel, which may or may not be easy.

On my Bigfoot, the factory installed a LP/AC water heater (it was one of the very first units on which this was done, but since the stove hood was not set up for the additional switch, they chose to install one on the horizontal surface of a storage cabinet where it was easily switched on by accident.) I opened up cabinets, wardrobe, removed the microwave, etc, and ran an additional wire, and installed a switch in the stove hood for the water heater 120v element, 12v controlling a relay.





I changed the existing gas switch out for an illuminated one (and added a ground on it for the light) and used an exacto knife to cut out the overlay over an existing switch hole in the plastic behind, and installed an illuminated switch for the electric element, drawing power off the power feed to the hood (water heater uses only an amp or so of 12v, so running fan, stove light, and water heater is still within the circuits capacity.

I used a Brother Tz labeler with white on clear to do the lettering. GAS to clarify what that switch was for (it already said Water Heater, and added all of the lettering for the Electric heat element.

This is an Atwood water heater which will always have a relay on the heat element. but easy enough to add the relay to the Suburban.

A quick Google search for Suburban water heater relay turns up this 12v controlled relay with contacts rated to 30a/250v. This is the relay used in the SW6DEL model water heaters.



MC Enterprises 232948MC Relay for Suburban Appliances


Charles

[sherminator]

I have made hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of electrical connections on moving machinery in my years as an electrical technician in the automation industry, using many types of connectors. The introduction of compression connectors, as opposed to screw connectors, was a great step forward. However, they work considerably better on solid wire than on stranded wire. 99.9999% of the wiring I have done is with stranded wire. The biggest step forward in electrical connections on moving machinery was the introduction of ferrules, to crimp over stranded wire and in effect make it solid wire at the connection point. Ferruling stranded wire makes (almost) all connections better, even screw connections. (Tinning stranded wire with solder also works, but is much harder to do properly.)

BTW, Wago is a brand name, and they make hundreds of styles of connectors, among thousands of other electrical items. The proper name of the thing many of you call a Wago connector is "Lever Lock", which is registered Wago product name. They are a great innovation. That water heater connector is something else, and not as good of a connector. This is because it is hard to release unless you are using stranded wire.

[CharlesinGA]

Originally Posted by sherminator

I have made hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of electrical connections on moving machinery in my years as an electrical technician in the automation industry, using many types of connectors. The introduction of compression connectors, as opposed to screw connectors, was a great step forward. However, they work considerably better on solid wire than on stranded wire. 99.9999% of the wiring I have done is with stranded wire. The biggest step forward in electrical connections on moving machinery was the introduction of ferrules, to crimp over stranded wire and in effect make it solid wire at the connection point. Ferruling stranded wire makes (almost) all connections better, even screw connections. (Tinning stranded wire with solder also works, but is much harder to do properly.)

Indeed, I was just thinking about making a similar post that ferrules would be worth the time and effort to install. I bought kits from Amazon with both square and hex crimpers and a bunch of ferrules with sleeves on them. I ended up buying plain ferrules in the lengths I needed from Ferrules Direct.

I am, however, going to plead guilty as charged. Recently I installed USB charging stations either side of my dinette wired into a light circuit that only powered the outdoor lights at the door, dump station and front cargo pod, so it was a perfect circuit to use. I used 5 position Wago lever locks and did not use ferrules, but I did a pretty strong pull test and found them to be holding tight. I also wrapped them in tape to prevent the levers from lifting. A 14 gauge wire with a ferrule should be as tight in a Wago as 14 gauge Romex solid wire would. Darn it, now I'm second guessing myself.

All of my 12v ground wires are now in a ground bar with ferrules, and I used them a couple of other places.

Charles

[CharlesinGA]

Originally Posted by SteveSgt

I contorted my way in through the outside hatch, rather than remove the mattress. If I had a to spend a lot more time in there, I would have crawled under the bed.

That's a mod I might do, but alternately I'm liking the idea of using the Parallax ALS20 automatic load shedding switch to shed the water heater load whenever the air conditioner is on.

An A/C, a electric water heater, fridge heating element, and the power converter should all operate on shore power simultaneously. If you have a microwave, this is where the load shed really shines is to put the load shed on the primary load, and the water heater on the shed circuit. You don't run microwaves for a long time, 4 or 5 minutes is about it most of the time. This allows the water heater to run, but sheds it for the short period of time the MW is operating. This is how I wired by 30 amp trailer and this is how Winnebago had wired my 30 amp class C motorhome (which had a convection microwave.

Installing a Easy Start or similar unit on the A/C also helps control power surges and the A/C starts with much less load on the system.

Charles

[sherminator]

Charles -

Don't beat yourself up on omitting ferrules on your Lever Lock connections. The connectors are designed to work with bare stranded wire, and they should hold fine. There are times when adding a ferrule causes a wire not not fit because it increases the diameter too much, and in those cases I do not use them. The more the wire fills the connector the better the connection, all other factors being the same.

[SteveSgt]

Originally Posted by CharlesinGA

An A/C, a electric water heater, fridge heating element, and the power converter should all operate on shore power simultaneously.

We have less load than that since our A/C is a heat pump which draws under 14A, and we have a 12Vdc compressor fridge.

Originally Posted by CharlesinGA

If you have a microwave, this is where the load shed really shines is to put the load shed on the primary load, and the water heater on the shed circuit. You don't run microwaves for a long time, 4 or 5 minutes is about it most of the time. This allows the water heater to run, but sheds it for the short period of time the MW is operating. This is how I wired by 30 amp trailer and this is how Winnebago had wired my 30 amp class C motorhome (which had a convection microwave.

I can easily conceive of situations when your suggestion is the right way to go. But in my case:

1. We have a convection microwave, and running it for 45 minutes for baking is not unusual.
2. The microwave is on the transfer switch for the inverter, so it can run on battery.
3. I don't ever want to run the electric water heater on battery. (That's when we'd use propane.)

Hopefully the Parallax ALS20 automatic load shedding switch can be adjusted so that when the A/C is "on" but not running because the trailer is at temperature, the water heater can use it's wattage.

[iamunique127]

This is actually the first I'm hearing of ferrules.

It turns out I made my own this past summer on a road trip when I was installing my fridge vent and interior fridge cooling fans. The wires on the fans were just so tiny I was having difficulty keeping them attached to the 12V block at the back of the fridge. So I twisted each set of positive and negative wires together and crimped them in one end of tiny butt connectors. Then I stripped off the insulation on the other end of the butt connectors. Voila, in-the-field ferrules.

[Don Flamenco]

The real/genuine WAGO connectors are highly susceptible to vibration induced loosening. Worse yet are the chinesium/alibaba knock-offs; I sure hope the ones being used by ETI aren't these.