Electric F-150

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by phsw98

GM build a Silverado ZH2 for the Army
https://driving.ca/chevrolet/auto-ne...r-the-military
Toyota is also betting big on HFC SUVs and pickups for early 2020s, than there's Tesla, Elon Musk is working on a pickup by 2020

Just to clarify... the Silverado ZH2 and various Toyota concept vehicles are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, but Tesla has no fuel cell plans at all. Elon Musk has been a vocal opponent of hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles, and all current and proposed Tesla vehicles (including the pickup) are "pure" battery-electric.

The Tesla pickup will presumably not be in production in 2020, because if were that close to production prototypes would be driving around now and featured on hundreds of websites... and Tesla would have been taking deposits for it for a long time by now.

[John in Santa Cruz]

hydrogen has very low energy density unless liquified to -240F. Hydrogen leaks through almost everything. hydrogen embrittles metals and other materials.

a battery-electric truck that has a range of 200 miles empty probably only has a range of 100-150 miles max when towing a trailer like our typical FGRV's. out west here, when we go camping, we're often driving 400-500 miles the first day.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

hydrogen has very low energy density unless liquified to -240F.

If only it were that warm... two digits are reversed: the temperature of liquid hydrogen is about -420 °F.

I noticed an interesting tidbit on a website: a given volume of gasoline (molecules around C8H18) contains more hydrogen than the same volume of compressed pure hydrogen gas; I didn't do the math, but it seems plausible. With the weight of the high-pressure cylinder required for the hydrogen, the gasoline in its tank probably weighs less.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

a battery-electric truck that has a range of 200 miles empty probably only has a range of 100-150 miles max when towing a trailer like our typical FGRV's. out west here, when we go camping, we're often driving 400-500 miles the first day.

That's the challenge. Take a typical long-range electric car, double the energy requirement to make it a larger pickup truck, and double it again to maintain the range while towing... and you have very expensive F-150 with a 3-ton battery!

[sunrisetrucker]

I found this video very interesting

https://youtu.be/17xh_VRrnMU

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

I found this video very interesting

https://youtu.be/17xh_VRrnMU

It is interesting, but consider the source (a politically motivated and blatantly biased communications media organization called PragerU) and look at the validity (and applicability to your situation and region) of individual "facts" and "data" items chosen for the argument.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It is interesting, but consider the source (a politically motivated and blatantly biased communications media organization called PragerU) and look at the validity (and applicability to your situation and region) of individual "facts" and "data" items chosen for the argument.

the snarky tone the announcer sets in the first 10-20 seconds pretty much made the political bias obvious. but certainly, the electric car crowd does tend to overlook the big picture. but then, the amount of electricity from coal has dropped precipitously in the past few years, supplanted by natural gas, with solar and wind are coming on strong, too. this article is over a year old, the trend has continued... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.5b14b72fbdfa

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

... this article is over a year old, the trend has continued...

It was deliberately massively biased the day it was made and conflicted with the reality of the time, but yes, the ways in which the basis of the analysis were wrong then are more wrong now.

I agree that there are some good points there, or rather, that they would be good if considered in context. Both full vehicle lifecycle impacts and the source of electricity are important. While most gas and diesel powertrains last the life of the vehicle (with maintenance and some repair), it seems likely that current EVs will typically need one mid-life complete battery replacement... with substantial environmental consequence.

On a lighter note, this is the custom plate on a Tesla here in Alberta:

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It seems likely that current EVs will typically need one mid-life complete battery replacement... with substantial environmental consequence.

I agree with much of what you have to say but for me the main issue is still the batteries. The current battery technology is very hard on the environment, lacks real usable range (except as a commuter vehicle) and takes too long to recharge. Until some new amazing battery comes along, the internal combustion engine will reign supreme.


Whether we like it or not.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

the snarky tone the announcer sets in the first 10-20 seconds pretty much made the political bias obvious.

I find that most people with strongly held opinions can be a bit snarky. I find that especially true for many environmentalists.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

I agree with much of what you have to say but for me the main issue is still the batteries. The current battery technology is very hard on the environment, lacks real usable range (except as a commuter vehicle) and takes too long to recharge. Until some new amazing battery comes along, the internal combustion engine will reign supreme.

I agree, except that I think that just routine advancement in fundamentally the same battery technology, combined with changing conditions (including costs and availability of charging), will likely to continue to substantially expand the applications for which battery-electric is desirable. A truck for long-distance towing of a travel trailer is not the next likely good application.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I agree, except that I think that just routine advancement in fundamentally the same battery technology, combined with changing conditions (including costs and availability of charging), will likely to continue to substantially expand the applications for which battery-electric is desirable. A truck for long-distance towing of a travel trailer is not the next likely good application.

Only time will tell

[Brian B-P]

The electric F-150 is almost a certainty, as Ford has announced it and is quite capable (especially with the recent partnership with VW) of building it. Whether it will useful for a travel trailer is a separate question.

The Rivian which I mentioned earlier is a substantial step behind: it's a serious proposal from a real company, but successful production is not at all certain; this would be a bit smaller than an F-150.

I just stumbled across a company which is proposing to build an electric pickup which technically very similar to the Rivian, but larger... perhaps F-250/F-350 sized: Atlis XT. My impression is that Atlis is a step behind Rivian; they look serious, but they're far from firing up production.

Bollinger hit the news a while ago with an SUV prototype. Although they do not have the SUV in production yet, they are now promoting a pickup variant.

The Tesla Pickup was mentioned earlier: it is "scheduled" for after the Model Y, which doesn't exist yet.

[travdes]

Atlis won't get off the ground, their owner / executives have very little experience, it'll be vapourware. Where as Rivian is well funded and have been stealing executives from the likes of Mclaren, Chrysler etc. They seem to be doing it right by buying an old GM factory for cheap, and hiring the right people with experience in car manufacturing. Where as Tesla insisted on reinventing the wheel and doing it their way and definitely had some growing pains. If I were to bet on anyone succeeding with an electric pickup, I would put my money on Rivian before Ford/Tesla. Tesla's charging infrastructure is their biggest selling point.

Unfortunately, with the battery prices dropping substantially, and the new startup electric cars being able to sell direct to customers it'll be difficult for the big five to compete price wise when they have dealerships taking a cut of profits.

[BCnomad]

Love my 239 mile epa range Bolt. Saved 7500km of V8 usage in its first year. The relatively dense DCFC placement on major BC routes certainly takes it (and other 200+ mile range vehicles) out of the commuter class.

When someone- Big Three or otherwise - makes a 1/2 ton with 250 mile towing range, I would be there with Robert looking at the paper work.

[Hilola]

So if Tesla and others are developing fully electric semi's, isn't it possible we could be seeing an electric pickup at some point capable of pulling a RV trailer?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Hilola

So if Tesla and others are developing fully electric semi's, isn't it possible we could be seeing an electric pickup at some point capable of pulling a RV trailer?

The situation for a heavy highway tractor is very different from a pickup truck. The heavy trucks will be used on specific routes to consistent locations with dedicated charging facilities, so range and charging availability will be less of an issue. Electric heavy trucks involve economic and operational challenges, but are not really technically challenging; their development won't help pickups at all. They also already exist... just from companies such as BYD which are not promoted as enthusiastically as Tesla.

According to Tesla, their Semi will use two of the same motors as used by the Model 3 car, incorporated into drive axles which would not be useful in a pickup truck. The battery will likely use the same modules as the Model 3, but just a lot more of them; a pickup can do the same, regardless of whether or not the Semi is built.

[Italian Tow]

We either mine it to burn it or mine it to burn it and produce electricity. I'm confused. hehehe

[travdes]

Very few areas in Canada still use coal for electricity, I believe Ontario closed their last coal plant in Nanticoke a couple years ago.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by travdes

Very few areas in Canada still use coal for electricity, I believe Ontario closed their last coal plant in Nanticoke a couple years ago.

If the source of electricity is a concern (as it often is for those considering electric vehicles), it's easy to check. There is a pretty good set of Wikipedia pages on this, including Electricity sector in Canada, and pages for individual provinces and states. Some jurisdictions have regulatory agencies or regulated bodies which report generation and consumption in great detail (such as the Alberta Electric System Operator and Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator)

Anyway, Alberta is one of those "few areas"; with mediocre hydro resources, we are still about half coal-powered, and most of the rest is natural gas, although the coal is being phased out over a planned period... and as I type this we're using only 29% coal power because the wind down south is blowing well and we're also burning lots of gas (for 57% of supply). You can see the current split between sources in the Current Supply Demand Report from AESO.

Ontario is its own special kind of mess (for political reasons obviously not for discussion here) and is heavily dependent on nuclear power - that is environmentally different, but not clearly better.

New Brunswick isn't coal-powered, but it's just as bad, running about half nuclear power but also depending substantially heavy fuel oil, coal, and even diesel. New Brunswick supplies Prince Edward Island, so it's the same. Nova Scotia burns coal, petroleum coke, fuel oil, and natural gas for almost all of their power. Saskatchewan, like adjacent Alberta, has mostly coal and natural gas generating capacity, and I've not heard of any plan to change that.

That's most of Canada accounted for, with lots of coal and nuclear. The rest of the provinces are primarily hydro powered - that's where you'll find most of the electric vehicles (in B.C. and Quebec, where they're subsidized). Since a large fraction of Canada's population is in the hydro and nuclear+hydro provinces, the country's electrical energy is largely from those sources, but coal and other fossil fuels are not just used in minor isolated areas.