Towing a '21'

[stephen99]

Originally Posted by 75thRanger

'Stuff' just adds up fast!

Ain't that the truth! We would have to do a purge every 3 or 4 months.

[Ops]

Originally Posted by stephen99

Ain't that the truth! We would have to do a purge every 3 or 4 months.

That "purging" is what getting moved to various parts of the country did for me for years. Now retired, I'm gathering too much moss, finally understanding the phrase, a rolling stone gathers no moss.

[Bea]

Originally Posted by 75thRanger

'Stuff' just adds up fast!

You're not kidding! I was shocked when I first weighed our E21 with all our stuff in it at a moving scale last year. It was about 500 lbs over what I was expecting, very close to our limit. Yikes... Then it dawned on me, it came from all the 'extra/optional' items we put on our build sheet! When we were working on our build sheet, we were only adding up the $$, not the pounds...

The only mention of weight from our sales rep, came from our 1 reinforced wall (an extra 50 lbs) but that was it. The fact that the air conditioner was an extra 100 lbs, and our oven was an extra 60 lbs, etc, did not even occur to us...so our trailer went on a diet! I don't like being so close to the limit. We want the option to carry water sometimes.

After this revelation, I suggested to ETI for them to add the weight amount next to the $$ amount for all their optional items (especially the heavy items) for their future customers. Yes, our trailer dry weight was listed on our paperwork, when we picked it up...but I quickly glanced over it, not realizing it was different from the advertised dry weight on the website. Not sure we would've nixed anything from the build sheet, but being more aware of this during the building process would've been helpful. Knowledge is safety! . -Bea

[cpaharley2008]

with 4 Escapes in 8 years, my purges have been automatic.....

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Yes, and one thing with a Highlander vs. Expedition. The difference between my 2013 Yukon and 2019 Expedition is significant. Had a 2013 Highlander and the engine grade braking was so so.

What engine speed did you use? I've heard complaints that an engine of this size (the Highlander has a 3.5 L) didn't produce enough engine braking, but the driver wasn't shifting down enough to result in a high enough engine speed.

Our Sienna (3.3 L) has no trouble controlling descent speed with engine braking on a 10% grade with 3,000 pounds of trailer, and could do much more by selecting one gear lower.

[Rich30039]

I would caution against the Ford Explorer. We towed our new to us 2017 21C from Oregon to Atlanta in March 2020 with 2016 Ford Explorer Sport ( man I loved that Explorer Sport) 3.5 ecoboost. Had no problems with towing at speed uphill or stopping. However, rear suspension didn't like the tongue weight. Had to replace two rear tires (nearly new at start of trip) in Louisiana. We recently moved to a different TV. Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel. Self leveling suspension solved the problem. Best wishes to you and other Escapees.

[sailor231]

We tow our 21 with a 2015 Q7 TDI with 6600lb capacity, the touareg and cayenne bump up to 7700lb due to a shorter rear overhang. Plenty of power going up and engine braking going down. We also get 17-20mpg while towing.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

What engine speed did you use? I've heard complaints that an engine of this size (the Highlander has a 3.5 L) didn't produce enough engine braking, but the driver wasn't shifting down enough to result in a high enough engine speed.

Our Sienna (3.3 L) has no trouble controlling descent speed with engine braking on a 10% grade with 3,000 pounds of trailer, and could do much more by selecting one gear lower.

Not sure about the technicals; we used the Highlander with our 17B, which is about 50% lighter than our 21. The grade braking worked, however both the Yukon and now especially the Expedition has fantastic grade braking. It seems to use both the vehicles brakes as well as the engine via altering the valve timing.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Not sure about the technicals; we used the Highlander with our 17B, which is about 50% lighter than our 21. The grade braking worked, however both the Yukon and now especially the Expedition has fantastic grade braking. It seems to use both the vehicles brakes as well as the engine via altering the valve timing.

The valve timing can change (in any of those vehicles) but it will matter very little - engine braking in a gasoline engine results from the engine sucking air past a closed throttle valve, and doesn't require any timing change.

I would be very surprised if any vehicle used the service (friction) brakes for this purpose, as it would overheat the brakes and is not necessary. Friction brakes are used by automated systems that let 4X4s creep down hills in a controlled way, but highway speed braking is a very different situation.

[75thRanger]

My aftermarket exhaust brake is great on downgrades. rarely have to touch the
brakes. You can hear it inside but nowhere near the noise of a engine(jake) brake.

Also very nice when slowing down just Rollin down the street. I have replaced the brake pads on my F250 once in 356K miles

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The valve timing can change (in any of those vehicles) but it will matter very little - engine braking in a gasoline engine results from the engine sucking air past a closed throttle valve, and doesn't require any timing change.

I would be very surprised if any vehicle used the service (friction) brakes for this purpose, as it would overheat the brakes and is not necessary. Friction brakes are used by automated systems that let 4X4s creep down hills in a controlled way, but highway speed braking is a very different situation.

Explained here a bit better than I can 2/3 the way down the article.

https://www.trucks.com/2017/11/16/re...dition-shines/

[dlakeman]

My 21C completes production Nov 27th. I have a supercharged Toyota 4Runner that per the specifications should tow my 21C. I asked ETI for a list of the weigh of each option. Although the calculations came out OK, I wanted some margin for error. Also some folks on this Forum were against towing with a 4Runner, although they didn't know mine was supercharged. I bought an F-150 in September with Max Tow Package and 3.5 EcoBoost V6. I can tow 12,500 lbs with that setup. I've practiced towing a neighbor's trailer. I don't even know there's a trailer behind me. I don't know about now, but I got $12K off the list price of my F-150, and I had 59 to choose from at the dealer. I'm going to test tow short distances with my 4Runner as I use it for off-road adventures. For any long distances I'll use the F-150.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 75thRanger

My aftermarket exhaust brake is great on downgrades. rarely have to touch the brakes. You can hear it inside but nowhere near the noise of a engine(jake) brake.

True. Both a compression-release ("Jake") brake and an exhaust brake valve are only for diesel engines; a gasoline engine doesn't need either because the throttle does essentially the same thing as an exhaust brake valve.

The original question was about mid-sized SUVs; none are likely to have a diesel engine.

[steve@umthermoform.com]

Please let me/us know how well the 4Runner does towing the '21'. Also, what altitude & percent grade you took it on. (I want to take the '21' on the Alcan to Alaska - 5,000' altitude &10% grade at a couple points.)

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Explained here a bit better than I can 2/3 the way down the article.

https://www.trucks.com/2017/11/16/re...dition-shines/

More transmission ratios (ten in the Expedition) mean that the logic which shifts down for engine braking can shift down in smaller steps to get enough engine braking without excessive engine speed. This certainly is an advantage to more ratios - there have been times that I wanted more engine braking in our motorhome but it was already down to 3rd (of the four ratios) and 2nd would be too low.

The current Expedition has a 10-speed, the 2013 Yukon presumably had a 6-speed, and an old enough Highlander (pre-2010?) would have a 5-speed.

[75thRanger]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

True. Both a compression-release ("Jake") brake and an exhaust brake valve are only for diesel engines; a gasoline engine doesn't need either because the throttle does essentially the same thing as an exhaust brake valve.

The original question was about mid-sized SUVs; none are likely to have a diesel engine.

When did we start keeping our comments to the original post? Takes maybe 10 reply's and the thread bears no resemblance to the original post/question.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 75thRanger

When did we start keeping our comments to the original post?

No problem - just noting context in case the original poster is still following the discussion, or someone else reads the beginning of the thread and expects to apply information from the end of the thread. Most people don't understand either compression-release brakes or exhaust braking valves, so they might expect them to apply where they can't.

[pittendrigh]

We tried to tow an Escape 21 with a Toyota Highlander. It had more than enough power but the suspension was mushy. Going steep downhill on the interstate at 60mph in a wind storm with patchy ice was not fun. I now have a Nissan Titan pickup with a "towing package." It may not be a requirement but it's a lot more secure in not-so-secure situations. I'm glad I no longer try to tow with the Highlander.

You asked for SUV recommendations. I'd ask about suspension options. You can probably/possibly buy something like a HIghlander with a bit more muscle on the wheels. Towing with soft take-the-kids-to-school suspension is not ideal.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by pittendrigh

We tried to tow an Escape 21 with a Toyota Highlander. It had more than enough power but the suspension was mushy.

Were you using a weight distribution hitch?

[cityofdestiny]

We tow our 21 in a turbodiesel BMW X5. It does fine, but it's what we had when we bought the trailer rather than what I'd go for in an ideal tow vehicle (there's a whole thread on it, so no need elaborate here).

We're considering a Nissan Armada for the next tow vehicle.