2021 pricing and options

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by dosby

My understanding is that the stock WFCO won't charge lithium battery properly, i.e. as fast as a lithium specific charger. It would still be able to charge lead-acid batteries if needed, though.

I have to agree with this. My original 55 amp WFCO converter never produced 55 amps, even with the pair of 6V lead acid batteries down to 60%. My replacement lithium specific Progressive Dynamics 35 amp converter produces 34.7 amps into a pair of Battleborn lithium batteries even when at 95%, cutting out when full.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Centex

You won't want to miss the September 29th Livestream. Maybe not all the detail you'll want, but surely lots to learn in the agenda item "all the 2021 options"

will attend, thanks!

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I have to agree with this. My original 55 amp WFCO converter never produced 55 amps, even with the pair of 6V lead acid batteries down to 60%. My replacement lithium specific Progressive Dynamics 35 amp converter produces 34.7 amps into a pair of Battleborn lithium batteries even when at 95%, cutting out when full.

ETI might as well provide a converter that could charge both battery types optimally. From what I read about lithium conversions, it's possible.
My 17B build sheet is due late October - I was planning to order cheap lithium battery and put it under the bench (found $1.5k for 400Ah at amazon, ~100lbs, with BMS), then the question becomes what else would need replacement/work, and whether I need 400Ah with just 190W solar.
The variables here are: converter/charger, and space/weight organization b/c new 100Ah lithium option is gonna be 2-5x lighter/smaller than their standard or dual 6v options. Would be nice to have some vertical storage box in the back where the 70lbs battery is now (for 17B). Or 140lbs, if dual. I don't think they would be cutting the frame in the back, but it surely could improve the approach angle at the back.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by dosby

ETI might as well provide a converter that could charge both battery types optimally. From what I read about lithium conversions, it's possible.
My 17B build sheet is due late October - I was planning to order cheap lithium battery and put it under the bench (found $1.5k for 400Ah at amazon, ~100lbs, with BMS), then the question becomes what else would need replacement/work, and whether I need 400Ah with just 190W solar.
The variables here are: converter/charger, and space/weight organization b/c new 100Ah lithium option is gonna be 2-5x lighter/smaller than their standard or dual 6v options. Would be nice to have some vertical storage box in the back where the 70lbs battery is now (for 17B). Or 140lbs, if dual. I don't think they would be cutting the frame in the back, but it surely could improve the approach angle at the back.

Good Question! The old rule for lead acid batteries was 1 watt of solar for every amp hour of battery as a minimum. Because lithium will take the full output of your controller until 98% full, I suspect you can get away with less than 1:1, at least in sunny locations. I'm well over 1:1 with a pair of 100 amp hour Battleborn batteries and 320 watts of solar on the roof. I have a portable 160 watt panel & the ability to tilt the rooftop panels, helpful in the winter, but not necessary during the high angle sun in the summer.

I would check the maximum draw of that 400 amp hour lithium. Some are as low as 100 amps, maybe not enough for the microwave. You can usually use the sum of the maximum draw for individual 12V 100 amp hour batteries as a total when using paralleled individual batteries.

As to ETI changing from the WFCO converter, who knows. On paper, it does go into the bulk stage, but not in real life. I would hope they change, but engineering wise, the WFCO should work.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I would check the maximum draw of that 400 amp hour lithium. Some are as low as 100 amps, maybe not enough for the microwave. You can usually use the sum of the maximum draw for individual 12V 100 amp hour batteries as a total when using paralleled individual batteries..

they are claiming 300-400A consistent discharge rate

[Centex]

Originally Posted by dosby

they are claiming 300-400A consistent discharge rate

I'd be curious to know the manufacturer / model number on that battery (e.g. RUIXU RX-LFP-12-400 or ...)?

Thanks!

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Centex

I'd be curious to know the manufacturer / model number on that battery (e.g. RUIXU RX-LFP-12-400 or ...)?

Thanks!

not a secret at all
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SXK92SS

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Centex

I'd be curious to know the manufacturer / model number on that battery (e.g. RUIXU RX-LFP-12-400 or ...)?

Originally Posted by dosby

not a secret at all
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SXK92SS

Thanks... but we still have no idea who makes the cells or their specifications. The brand in the Amazon listing (Shunbin) will be for the company that assembles the battery; they almost certainly don't make the cells.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Thanks... but we still have no idea who makes the cells or their specifications. The brand in the Amazon listing (Shunbin) will be for the company that assembles the battery; they almost certainly don't make the cells.

I suspect there are all the same. If not, it should be possible to downsize it to 300Ah by testing those individual cells and taking out the faulty ones along with some spares
At anything >100Ah, I think it's a good alternative to 2x the price (Battleborns). At only 100Ah, extra $400 not worth the risk IMHO

[DWM3]

Originally Posted by dosby

not a secret at all
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SXK92SS

I'd suggest you take a look at the reviews for those batteries. People say they are used batteries and no warranty.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by DWM3

I'd suggest you take a look at the reviews for those batteries. People say they are used batteries and no warranty.

Well alibaba/express has similar pricing for more established brands (not battleborn of course)

[dosby]

Quickly watched the battery part of today's live stream. It all makes sense now, will be ordering 1 battery now for sure, looks like they thought it out well.

GoPower battery 100Ah or same Amp capacity as dual 6V, 36 lbs, 3500 cycles at 30% discharge (10 year warranty), the label said Sun Cycle lithium battery. No word on discharge rate or BMS specifics (I assume there is one). I assume the discharge rate would support at least 1200W = 100A * 12V consistent rate and some spikes.

Converter with lithium option, WFCO, I assume same 55A

Viktron Orion Smart DC-2-DC converter: protect vehicle from charging when not moving, works with smart alternators, senses when vehicle runs/not runs, and still can charge battery, I assume at least 30A

Very nice combination for a little over $1k

The two things not covered at all was battery placement but I am guessing inside. And also interaction with solar but that is a no brainer, it will just charge the battery directly.

[dosby]

This is the one, looks awesome, 100A, 120A/30 min, 150A/5 sec discharge, should work with ETI's 1500W inverter well
https://gpelectric.com/products/100a...solar-battery/

[AmyT]

Originally Posted by dosby

Quickly watched the battery part of today's live stream. It all makes sense now, will be ordering 1 battery now for sure, looks like they thought it out well.

GoPower battery 100Ah or same Amp capacity as dual 6V, 36 lbs, 3500 cycles at 30% discharge (10 year warranty), the label said Sun Cycle lithium battery. No word on discharge rate or BMS specifics (I assume there is one). I assume the discharge rate would support at least 1200W = 100A * 12V consistent rate and some spikes.

Converter with lithium option, WFCO, I assume same 55A

Viktron Orion Smart DC-2-DC converter: protect vehicle from charging when not moving, works with smart alternators, senses when vehicle runs/not runs, and still can charge battery, I assume at least 30A

Very nice combination for a little over $1k

The two things not covered at all was battery placement but I am guessing inside. And also interaction with solar but that is a no brainer, it will just charge the battery directly.

Yes, I am glad that they are thinking of the total system rather than piecemeal. Only question now is ... one battery and panel, or two?

[Brian B-P]

The September 29th presentation was done as a recorded video, rather than a livestream; however, it is featured at the top of Escape's "livestream" page. The electrical options section starts at about 7:26.

The new "design" guy refers to the battery as "100 amp". Since he probably means 100 amp-hour capacity and doesn't know to say that, my confidence in the expertise is low. The comment about vehicle alternators "burning up" while charging lithium batteries doesn't help, other. Sadly, this seems to be a common issue with any supplier.

It's not surprising that the lithium battery is coming from Go Power (an established Escape supplier). Their specifications show a maximum of 120 A for 30 minutes, so just one of these should handle typical loads with the optional 1500 watt inverter, but maxing out the inverter will cause excessive load on the battery. As is likely true of any lithium-ion battery, unheated winter storage here in Alberta could be problematic - I would remove it for the winter.

Most people seem to assume that lithium batteries can be safely fully discharged, but lead-acid can only be safely discharged to 50%. Neither is true, and I note that the specs for this lithium battery include a cycle life of:

≤1500 @ 100% Depth of Discharge;
≥3000 @ 80%;
≥4500 @ 30%

... and the Escape rep mentions the 3000-hour number... which is only true at 80% discharge. For sizing, anyone conservatively planning on 50% for lead-acid should only plan on 80% for lithium, and should assume less than full charge, so a lithium battery only has about 1.5 times the capacity of a lead-acid battery of the same rated capacity... not twice as much.

There was no real discussion of the details of higher-capacity options. That means no explanation of why they would offer two or four of the 100 Ah model instead of one or two of the 250 Ah model from the same supplier. In the Go Power specs the larger battery is strangely rated at the same charge and discharge current as the smaller batter, which makes no sense unless they are using the same management electronics and that's the limiting factor. Dimensional data are nonsensical (they are both listed as BCI group 31 but only the smaller battery is actually Group 31 dimensions) so no definitive comparison can be made; however, according to these specs the larger battery has twice the volume and 2.2 times the mass but 2.5 times the capacity.

I hope that the Orion DC-to-DC is the 30-amp model, not just the 9-amp; clearly the details of this option have not been finalized. This sort of device is good to get effective trailer battery charging from the tow vehicle regardless of the battery type, but is especially important with the higher fully-charged voltage of a LiFePO4 battery. It would be nice to get this factory-installed, but of course it can be added later, to any trailer of any vintage.

[Brian B-P]

It's interesting to see that the SeeLevel gauge system is finally to be offered, after years of discussion. It starts about 11:33 in the video. It will presumably be the 709-RVC NLP model (with 6-inch sensors on the fresh and grey tanks).

By the way, if anyone has wondered how big an Escape fresh water tank is, the one in the video is an Alcaro Plastics model 2240, which is 48-5/8" x 20" x 6-3/4", with a volume of 107 litres or 28.2 US gallons.

[dosby]

≤1500 @ 100% Depth of Discharge;

For half-year boondocking with daily complete discharge the battery would last approximately 10 years, after which point the prices would be much lower, so it's just an abstract question
My guess is the battery would last a few years at ~95% discharge, and then would be easy to replace with something much better and much cheaper

The immediate advantage to me is 2-3x smaller size/weight, no off-gasing, and no maintenance compared to lead-acid

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

.... The comment about vehicle alternators "burning up" while charging lithium batteries doesn't help, other [SIC]. Sadly, this seems to be a common issue with any supplier.

Care to offer comment on this presentation by "any supplier" (recognizing that it uses a 350Ah battery, which the larger parallel arrays offered by ETI will exceed)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

[Centex]

Originally Posted by dosby

... The immediate advantage to me is ... no off-gasing ...

"no" ?

Please continue my education ....
What does a LiFePO4 battery "vent"?
When and Why?
(Noting "8-20kPa" = 1.16-2.9psi)

[dosby]

Originally Posted by Centex

"no" ?

Please continue my education ....
What does a LiFePO4 battery "vent"?
When and Why?
(Noting "8-20kPa" = 1.16-2.9psi)

My guess is for letting excess air in/out at high altitudes (10,000 ft or so)
I mean, from the box, not individual cells