2021 pricing and options

[Centex]

Originally Posted by dosby

My guess is for letting excess air in/out at high altitudes (10,000 ft or so)
I mean, from the box, not individual cells

Thanks ..... but I'll look for better than a guess

(nothing wrong with honestly admitting "I don't know." )

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by dosby

For half-year boondocking with daily complete discharge the battery would last approximately 10 years, after which point the prices would be much lower, so it's just an abstract question
My guess is the battery would last a few years at ~95% discharge, and then would be easy to replace with something much better and much cheaper

True, and the same is true of lead-acid batteries at 80% discharge. In real use, degradation in storage and on float and due to accidental extreme discharges seem to be more of a limitation than ideal cycle life.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Centex

Please continue my education ....
What does a LiFePO4 battery "vent"?
When and Why?
(Noting "8-20kPa" = 1.16-2.9psi)

All cells, batteries, and properly built battery boxes have vents. "No venting" usually refers to a complete lack of cell venting in normal operation, and applies to both valve-regulated lead-acid types (such as AGM) and the various lithium-ion types. Two-way box vents do accommodate atmospheric pressure changes, and additional venting is needed in case of severe failure (so the box vents in a controlled way instead of rupturing, and to dump heat from runaway cells).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Centex

Care to offer comment on this presentation by "any supplier" (recognizing that it uses a 350Ah battery, which the larger parallel arrays offered by ETI will exceed)?

The smoking alternator in the video appears to be running full-field without any overcurrent protection at an unrealistically low speed; note that alternators are normally not driven at the engine speed, but more commonly at twice the engine speed or more. Victron staff certainly know their equipment, but apparently not cars. I'm not worried about that happening in an RV, regardless of the battery.

The wiring in most tow vehicles is not safe at anything close to the current used in the test in this video, so a fuse or circuit breaker (preferably auto-resetting) would cut off charging long before that current. As we have discussed many times in this forum, the resistance of typical tug-to-trailer wiring substantially reduces charging current from the short direct connection of this test; the wiring resistance is likely higher than the internal battery resistance. I don't think Escape has ever run anything more than a 10 gauge wire from the 7-pin connector to the battery - where that is buried without free airflow it's going to get screaming hot if anyone manages to push 70 amps through it, and that's at least as much of a concern as the alternator. Who knows... perhaps heavy-gauge wiring will come with at least the higher-capacity lithium battery options since they're talking about a "whole system" approach? Even that won't match the test scenario.

It is true that lithium batteries have relatively low internal resistance (which is why they have relatively high charge-discharge cycle efficiency), but the dual and even quad GC2 lead-acid battery banks used in many RVs also have low enough internal resistance to charge at substantial rates given a 14.2 volts supply to a half-discharged battery. Somehow, alternators in trailer tugs and motorhome seem to survive, perhaps due to proper alternator regulation, circuit protection, and simple charging circuit resistance. For example, my motorhome has dual GC2 batteries and relatively direct wiring connection to a standard Ford SuperDuty alternator which has had no problems with fully discharged coach batteries.

Still, the current limiting of the soon-to-be-optional DC-to-DC converter would be a nice feature.

[Raider47]

the comment section of the YouTube video post yesterday discussed the new cabinet option. Escape mentioned new lighter wood options coming soon. If it is lighter than maple, it must be the fake driftwood look. I was hoping for something darker like the sapele in Northern Lite campers.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

True, and the same is true of lead-acid batteries at 80% discharge. In real use, degradation in storage and on float and due to accidental extreme discharges seem to be more of a limitation than ideal cycle life.

Another limitation of lead acid batteries that the lithium replacement solves is the internal voltage drop as the state of charge decreases. You may find you can't get a lead acid battery(ies) down to 50% with a heavy inverter load because the inverter pulls down the battery voltage below the inverter cutoff. The lower internal resistance of the lithium battery will allow heavy loads well below 50% without enough voltage drop to shut down an inverter,

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Another limitation of lead acid batteries that the lithium replacement solves is the internal voltage drop as the state of charge decreases. You may find you can't get a lead acid battery(ies) down to 50% with a heavy inverter load because the inverter pulls down the battery voltage below the inverter cutoff. The lower internal resistance of the lithium battery will allow heavy loads well below 50% without enough voltage drop to shut down an inverter,

True. All batteries drop in voltage as the state of charge drops, but the additional drop due to current flow through internal resistance is more of a problem with lead-acid than with typical lithium batteries. Also, the nominal voltage of four LiFePO4 cells in series (the typical RV lithium-ion setup) is significantly higher than the nominal voltage of six lead-acid cells in series (the "12 volt" setup, whether it is in one battery case or two) so the lithium system is always at a higher voltage for a comparable state of charge; this causes charging difficulties and potentially problems with equipment intolerant of higher voltage, but reduces issues with too low a voltage.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It's not surprising that the lithium battery is coming from Go Power (an established Escape supplier). Their specifications show a maximum of 120 A for 30 minutes, so just one of these should handle typical loads with the optional 1500 watt inverter, but maxing out the inverter will cause excessive load on the battery...

There was no real discussion of the details of higher-capacity options. That means no explanation of why they would offer two or four of the 100 Ah model instead of one or two of the 250 Ah model from the same supplier. In the Go Power specs the larger battery is strangely rated at the same charge and discharge current as the smaller batter, which makes no sense unless they are using the same management electronics and that's the limiting factor. Dimensional data are nonsensical (they are both listed as BCI group 31 but only the smaller battery is actually Group 31 dimensions) so no definitive comparison can be made; however, according to these specs the larger battery has twice the volume and 2.2 times the mass but 2.5 times the capacity.

I checked with Go Power Electric about this...

First, the size. I asked

The 250 Ah lithium iron phosphate solar battery specs show a BCI group size of 31, but it is clearly not that size. Is there a correct corresponding BCI group for this unit?

and they responded

You are correct, this battery is not group 31. This was suppose to be removed from the specs, but it seems to have accidentally not been update. I have already forwarded this to my marketing team to get the changes made.
The dimensions are accurate still.

So the "Group 31" for the 250 Ah battery is a typo, to be corrected.

Then, the current rating. I noted

The charge and discharge currents for this 250 Ah battery are listed as the same as for the 100 Ah model, which makes no sense unless BMS hardware components are limiting current. Only 120 amps for any more than five seconds is low for a battery of this size

and they responded

The discharge values are accurate, there is a safety factor, but overall these are the recommended limits.

My guess is that the manufacturer went cheap and used the same BMS for both sizes, and so in a dual lithium battery configuration two 100 Ah units would provide twice the allowed peak current as one 250 Ah unit, at the expense of greater weight, complication, and likely cost. In the largest "four battery" case it would make more sense to use two 250 Ah units in parallel (for a total of 500 Ah) than to use four 100 Ah units in series-parallel combination (for only 400 Ah total).


In the video, the design guy directed potential customers for larger lithium battery configurations to the office staff for details, so Escape's intended configurations (including what sizes would be used, what models can accommodate more than two 100 Ah batteries, and where they would go) are not yet known.

[DWM3]

Escape seems to have gotten ahead of themselves on all the new 2021 options. Maybe they will get it sorted before my build sheet is due.

Don

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DWM3

Escape seems to have gotten ahead of themselves on all the new 2021 options. Maybe they will get it sorted before my build sheet is due.

I think they're at the preliminary stage of releasing information to build interest and address customer questions, without yet being at the ready-to-order stage. Auto manufacturers do this as well, releasing specification and order materials with "TBD" (for "to be determined") scattered through them.

This can be frustrating for a buyer, but it can also give the manufacturer an opportunity to fine-tune offerings based on customer feedback. They've opened the discussion - I would send them questions on anything of interest that is not clear.

[DWM3]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I think they're at the preliminary stage of releasing information to build interest and address customer questions, without yet being at the ready-to-order stage. Auto manufacturers do this as well, releasing specification and order materials with "TBD" (for "to be determined") scattered through them.

This can be frustrating for a buyer, but it can also give the manufacturer an opportunity to fine-tune offerings based on customer feedback. They've opened the discussion - I would send them questions on anything of interest that is not clear.

Yes, I agree Brian. But in Escape's case instead of just saying TBD on pricing they put some pretty high prices on things like lithium batteries and the flush mount range. They have backed off on the lithium pricing but not the range yet. I'd much prefer just telling me they don't know yet.

Don

[okhcolot]

Just noticed that the flush mount range dropped in price by more than 50% on the website. I was wondering why the price for the one shown in the 9/29 livestream cost nowhere near the price they had published. Was hoping it was going to be a Dickinson!