19' core wiring schematic

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Lanark Camper

yes it is, mine was marked at 55 A, the feed from the solar panel was marked at 30 Amps


once tripped, they cool off and reset themselves



Bob

I learned some things today ! Thankyou , Bob

[cpaharley2008]

Tom,
Would you upload your final product to the files section here on the forum for posterity sake, thanks

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Tom,
Would you upload your final product to the files section here on the forum for posterity sake, thanks

Sure! Right now I'm struggling with what version of the trailer wiring to post. It seems that Escape has wired the same size trailers in the same year different. Between years and models, it's even worse.

Should I post the wiring schematic of the version that would fit "best practice" or multiple versions and let the reader try to figure which version his trailer matches?

[cpaharley2008]

Use the KISS and post "best practice" and others can go from there, thanx

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Use the KISS and post "best practice" and others can go from there, thanx

Will do! This has been a wild thread. A few people learned some things, me being one of them!

Hopefully no one had their feelings hurt - engineers are the worst with people skills.

[Greg A]

This has been an interesting read and I’m following and learning quite a bit. Not ready to tackle wiring improvements yet but have known they are needed.
Thanks Tom, and other contributors for an excellent discussion. I am going to take a more knowledgeable look under the benches next maintenance day.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Since I have a 60 amp fuse at the battery, the 50 amp thermal fuse was redundant and I removed it. The wire leaving the battery cutoff switch on my trailer goes to the converter and 40 amp thermal fuse for the power tongue jack.

The third wire in the pic is a wire that I added and goes to the emergency brake circuit.

Below is the wiring diagram for my trailer.

Tom: One little nuance that I may have mentioned before is that the breakaway switch should probably be straight to the battery without a fuse, correct? See the Oliver schematics page 43.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Tom: One little nuance that I may have mentioned before is that the breakaway switch should probably be straight to the battery without a fuse, correct? See the Oliver schematics page 43.

You are correct. The Oliver trailer doesn't use a terminal fuse on the battery per their schematic. They have an unfused hot wire traversing the length of the trailer. It just goes to prove that Oliver isn't as well designed as they claim.

A terminal fuse located within 7" of the battery terminal meets the ABYC requirements for DC Main circuit protection. Granted, ABYC is a boating standard but the same electrical risks exist in an travel trailer as in a boat.

Storage battery current overprotection is also covered in NEC Article 480.

But those are just rules that were put in place because something bad happened. That is the way electrical code is created - someone died or a catastrophic fire occurred, etc. and a new rule is applied. Fusing a storage battery at the terminals just makes sense when you think about what could happen. That a battery wire would short to ground would be a rare occurrence but the risk involved if it did is severe.

$6 buys a Maxi fuse holder with a 60 amp fuse. That's cheap insurance to prevent a much higher cost for just replacing the burnt wire much less if your trailer caught fire.

I use a 60 amp terminal fuse on my trailer. The breakaway switch circuit should never pull that much current unless it shorts to ground so the circuit should always be operational unless it has already failed.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

You are correct. The Oliver trailer doesn't use a terminal fuse on the battery per their schematic. They have an unfused hot wire traversing the length of the trailer. It just goes to prove that Oliver isn't as well designed as they claim.

A terminal fuse located within 7" of the battery terminal meets the ABYC requirements for DC Main circuit protection. Granted, ABYC is a boating standard but the same electrical risks exist in an travel trailer as in a boat.

Storage battery current overprotection is also covered in NEC Article 480.

I use a 60 amp terminal fuse on my trailer. The breakaway switch circuit should never pull that much current unless it shorts to ground so the circuit should always be operational unless it has already failed.

I agree with you that a fuse close to the battery is a prudent design. In our 2010 we only have an auto reset thermal fuse under the drivers side dinette bench. Single battery from the factory was on the tongue and now dual 6V are inside under passenger side front bench due an upgrade by the first owner and a relocation due to my mini-split install. I simply rerouted the wiring. So if I’m hearing you correctly the line from the battery to the auto reset device (that traverses the front of our trailer) is unprotected. I should install a terminal fuse inside the battery box within 7” of the terminal. Should I match the amperage of the auto reset device for the new fuse and then remove the auto reset? Or base the terminal fuse size off the existing wire gauge? I don’t think it matters regarding the terminal fuse size because of how they are wired but our set up is pretty simple without solar, no inverter and no power tongue jack. Thanks.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I agree with you that a fuse close to the battery is a prudent design. In our 2010 we only have an auto reset thermal fuse under the drivers side dinette bench. Single battery from the factory was on the tongue and now dual 6V are inside under passenger side front bench due an upgrade by the first owner and a relocation due to my mini-split install. I simply rerouted the wiring. So if I’m hearing you correctly the line from the battery to the auto reset device (that traverses the front of our trailer) is unprotected. I should install a terminal fuse inside the battery box within 7” of the terminal. Should I match the amperage of the auto reset device for the new fuse and then remove the auto reset? Or base the terminal fuse size off the existing wire gauge? I don’t think it matters regarding the terminal fuse size because of how they are wired but our set up is pretty simple without solar, no inverter and no power tongue jack. Thanks.

I think the wire gauge for that run in your trailer is 8 gauge - max amps at 12v is 55 amps for a continuous load. For catastrophic fuse protection, 8 gauge with a 4 ft or less run can pass up to 150 amps.
http://www.offroaders.com/technical/...gauge-to-amps/

You want the fuse size to be as large as the wiring can handle without damage. It's only there in case the wire shorts to ground - not to protect any devices. I used a 60 amps fuse as that was the highest current that would pass through that wire from the converter.

The terminal fuse protects the wire - the thermal breaker protects the converter. If you use a 60 amp fuse, it protects both of them. If you go larger with the terminal fuse, leave the thermal breaker in the circuit.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I think the wire gauge for that run in your trailer is 8 gauge - max amps at 12v is 55 amps for a continuous load. For catastrophic fuse protection, 8 gauge with a 4 ft or less run can pass up to 150 amps.
12 Volt Wiring: Wire Gauge to Amps | Offroaders.com

You want the fuse size to be as large as the wiring can handle without damage. It's only there in case the wire shorts to ground - not to protect any devices. I used a 60 amps fuse as that was the highest current that would pass through that wire from the converter.

The terminal fuse protects the wire - the thermal breaker protects the converter. If you use a 60 amp fuse, it protects both of them. If you go larger with the terminal fuse, leave the thermal breaker in the circuit.

8 gauge sounds about right. I’ll confirm and fuse accordingly. Thanks Tom.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I don't know if a terminal fuse is required in Canada but installing one is common practice in the US.

Concerning the standards for your battery "power supply" or terminal circuit:

Canadian rules,
CSA Z240.6.2-14/C22.2 No. 148-14 2014, "5.12.13 Overcurrent devices for power supplies (e.g., batteries) shall be located not more than 1.5 m (5 ft) (as measured along the conductors) from the power supply and not more than 460 mm (18.5 in) from the point where the conductors enter the vehicle (through floors, walls, etc.)."

US rules,
NFPA-1192 and RVIA LV 2018: "3-5 Location. The overcurrent-protective device shall be installed in an accessible location on the vehicle within 18 in. (457 mm) of the point where the power source connects to the vehicle circuits."

For the brake circuit, see US RVIA LV Figure 8.4.1.7 Brake Wiring Diagram. It matches Figure 3 in the Canadian standard. Neither shows a fuse or circuit breaker in the breakaway switch circuit to trailer battery.

While US standard state "3-1 All conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection." The rule also states "Braking circuits, cranking circuits, circuits supplying lights subject to federal or state regulations, and pigtails of utilization equipment less than 10 inches in length are exempt from overcurrent protection requirements."

For Canadian standard "1.2 This Standard does not apply to 6 or 12 V battery-operated vehicular lighting and brake wiring systems specified in CSA Z240.1.2, provided that the conductors of such a system are not or cannot come in contact with the conductors of the higher voltage system."

73/gus

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by gklott

Concerning the standards for your battery "power supply" or terminal circuit:

Canadian rules,
CSA Z240.6.2-14/C22.2 No. 148-14 2014, "5.12.13 Overcurrent devices for power supplies (e.g., batteries) shall be located not more than 1.5 m (5 ft) (as measured along the conductors) from the power supply and not more than 460 mm (18.5 in) from the point where the conductors enter the vehicle (through floors, walls, etc.)."

US rules,
NFPA-1192 and RVIA LV 2018: "3-5 Location. The overcurrent-protective device shall be installed in an accessible location on the vehicle within 18 in. (457 mm) of the point where the power source connects to the vehicle circuits."

For the brake circuit, see US RVIA LV Figure 8.4.1.7 Brake Wiring Diagram. It matches Figure 3 in the Canadian standard. Neither shows a fuse or circuit breaker in the breakaway switch circuit to trailer battery.

While US standard state "3-1 All conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection." The rule also states "Braking circuits, cranking circuits, circuits supplying lights subject to federal or state regulations, and pigtails of utilization equipment less than 10 inches in length are exempt from overcurrent protection requirements."

For Canadian standard "1.2 This Standard does not apply to 6 or 12 V battery-operated vehicular lighting and brake wiring systems specified in CSA Z240.1.2, provided that the conductors of such a system are not or cannot come in contact with the conductors of the higher voltage system."

73/gus

Great job digging this up!

So, in the US -

1. Overcurrent protection must be within 18 in. of the power source (battery).
2. Escape emergency brake circuit wiring is over 10" in length. Since not exempt, the implication is that overcurrent protection is required. ( this could be read that pigtails are the only ones that have to be less than 10")

Canadian electric code is somewhat more lenient than US electric code. Per Canadian code, the way Escape wires the battery circuits is permitted.

Here's the rub. My trailer is not in Canada.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Great job digging this up!

So, in the US -

1. Overcurrent protection must be within 18 in. of the power source (battery).
2. Escape emergency brake circuit wiring is over 10" in length. Since not exempt, the implication is that overcurrent protection is required. ( this could be read that pigtails are the only ones that have to be less than 10")

Canadian electric code is somewhat more lenient than US electric code. Per Canadian code, the way Escape wires the battery circuits is permitted.

Here's the rub. My trailer is not in Canada.

Neither are your Canadian approved, doubled up circuit breakers (in Canada). I’ve been wondering about that since you mentioned it. It seems to be the one area where you don’t tout and follow the NEC, n’est pas?

Of course, I could have this wrong, and apologies if I do. Just being curious, not trying to fling poo.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

Neither are your Canadian approved, doubled up circuit breakers (in Canada). I’ve been wondering about that since you mentioned it. It seems to be the one area where you don’t tout and follow the NEC, n’est pas?

Of course, I could have this wrong, and apologies if I do. Just being curious, not trying to fling poo.

Here's the rub. Non-CTL breaker panels have been illegal for new installations in the US since 1965. But the panels were not installed in the US - they were installed in Canada where they are legal. You are allowed to buy replacement breakers in the US for "installed" non-CTL panels - just not install new panels.

So they are quasi legal here but just barely. Since Escape knew that the trailer would be sold in the US, they are the ones that violated the rules.

Now, is using non-CTl breakers unsafe? Of course not. The Siemens panel that Escape installed is a 2-Space 4-Circuit panel that meets Canadian code requirements. It doesn't meet NEC or UL requirements due to it allowing non-CTL breakers. But it's not unsafe.

So should I replace the panel or just keep cringing every time I see that Canadian maple sticker on the panel instead of a UL sticker? Or is a day's work and about $100 not worth it since it's not a safety issue?

[gbaglo]

You guys are working from the assumption that US regs are better. If that's the case, how come you need surge protection etc. to protect your trailer from crappy campground wiring?

[gklott]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Great job digging this up!
Escape emergency brake circuit wiring is over 10" in length. Since not exempt, the implication is that overcurrent protection is required. ( this could be read that pigtails are the only ones that have to be less than 10")

Thanks. I suggest that the RVIA LV exempts the brake circuit in total. Also, the breakaway switch is not "utilization equipment", so the 10" rule would not apply.

73/gus

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by gklott

I suggest that the RVIA LV exempts the brake circuit in total. Also, the breakaway switch is not "utilization equipment", so the 10" rule would not apply.

73/gus

I think you are correct. The rule is somewhat ambiguous in the way it is written as the first time I read it, it looked like only wiring less than 10" were exempt but rereading it made it clear. A period between the two sections would have been better.

"3-1 All conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection." The rule also states "Braking circuits, cranking circuits, circuits supplying lights subject to federal or state regulations are exempt from overcurrent protection requirements. Pigtails of utilization equipment less than 10 inches in length are exempt from overcurrent protection requirements."

[gklott]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

You guys are working from the assumption that US regs are better. If that's the case, how come you need surge protection etc. to protect your trailer from crappy campground wiring?

From my working with the standards, both NFPA-1192/RVIA LV and CSA Z240 are compromises, but still have the same goal. Neither is "better".

The RVIA LV is a 2018 update, and the CSA is 2014. The next CSA update is 2020.

I also turn to ABYC E-11 for guidance. To show the differences, for the allowable amperage of single conductor not bundled, sheathed, or in conduit, 10 AWG and 90C rating:
ABYC E-11 2018 = 55 A (Table 6a)
RVIA LV 2018 = 40 A (Table 2)
CSA Z240 2014 = 55 A (C22.1-18 Table 1)

As another example, using wire nuts:
ABYC E-11 "11.14.3.6 Twist on connectors (i.e., wire nuts) shall not be used."
RVIA LV "6-1.6 Wire Nuts. Twist on wire nuts, if used, shall be listed and used within the terms of their listing."
CSA Z240 "Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy."

For RV connectors, following ABYC E-11, I always use crimp type - for both DC and AC circuits.

73/gus

[gklott]

Figured out this entry breaker situation, as shown in this image.



Beneath the trailer is the 7-pin wiring breakout box. As shown below, all was as expected, except for the 3 wires connected to the +12V breakout - second from right.



One is for the tongue jack, one is to the main DC entry point as shown above, and I think the other is for the braking circuit. Still checking this out.

Found the 30A fuse for the power jack amongst the wiring on the street side of the tongue frame, as shown.



Tracing more wiring, and will update this again as I learn new paths. Am also upgrading the solar charger, mains charger, SOC metering, adding GFPD for solar, etc. Will provide a complete schematic when done.

73/gus