Soneil’s SiO2 Batteries - Somebody Has To Try Them!

[John in Santa Cruz]

I note Trojan makes a T-145 AGM thats 260AH at the 20 hour rate in approximately the same form factor (a slightly taller sized GC-2)

[Mike G]

Apache Junction! Ah, the memories. The last time I got to hike with my dad before he passed was on the Siphon Draw Trail. He, my young son, and I made it perhaps a third of the way before turning back. What a day that was. Beautiful scenery, too.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

I note Trojan makes a T-145 AGM thats 260AH at the 20 hour rate in approximately the same form factor (a slightly taller sized GC-2)

John, I’ve looked at the various battery makers. Still, Trojan only wants you to go to 50% DOD, so only 130 useable ah’s. Apparently you still haven’t looked at our parameters and reasoning.

The intention of this thread, that I the OP started, is our experience with Soniell SiO2 batteries. If you want to talk about other batteries I suggest you start your own thread.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Tin

Perry I have no desire to argue with you and I understand you already bought these batteries. I only wanted to point out IMO this is a long running battery scam and I would hate to see others lose there hard earned money. good luck with your new agm batteries.

I have been researching SiO2 for at least the past 8 months or longer. My first post here was on September 19, 2020. I have found zero, nitch, nada that Soneil SiO2 or Azimuth Solar are involved with your claims.

Azimuth Solar has been in business since 2016. I can find no evidence the Soneil SiO2 batteries are a scam. By now that evidence should have come forward. Scams very rarely go beyond 1-3 months.

Could you please supply evidence linking Soneil SiO2 batteries or Azimuth Solar to justify your claims?

Thanks,

Perry

[BigSwede]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Indeed, as far as I can tell from all the reading I've done on the quote sio2 batteries, they're just AGMs rebranded. the absorbed glass mat in an AGM battery is in fact glass which is primarily silicon dioxide, Si 02

They aren't the same as a standard AGM but are a related variety of lead-acid battery. I have seen them described as extra-gelled gel cells, or "lead crystal" batteries. They do use a lot less acid than a conventional lead-acid battery, almost a dry cell. Eliminating most of the acid means that the lead plates last longer and sulphation does not build-up and reduce capacity over time. With the crystalline structure, they can also be used in any orientation.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by BigSwede

They aren't the same as a standard AGM but are a related variety of lead-acid battery.

Yes, they are AGM lead-acid, but with a different electrolyte than a standard lead-acid.

Originally Posted by BigSwede

They do use a lot less acid than a conventional lead-acid battery, almost a dry cell. Eliminating most of the acid means that the lead plates last longer and sulphation does not build-up and reduce capacity over time. With the crystalline structure, they can also be used in any orientation.

The performance benefits are uncertain - that's what Perry is going to find out - but all AGM and gel batteries can be used in any orientation that doesn't place the relief valve facing downward. Operating orientation is not an advantage of these batteries, and I haven't seen any manufacturer, distributor, or user of them claiming this as an advantage.

[John in Santa Cruz]

what electrolyte is this 'different' acid ? all I know of is sulfuric acid. Silicon DiOxide, SiO2, is QUARTZ, the only thing that will 'dissolve' in is Hydrofluoric Acid, which is exceedingly dangerous in any form.

AGM (and gel) batteries already have a lot less acid in them than flooded wet cells do, just enough to 'wet' the glass mat (or the silica powder that, with the acid, forms the 'gel')

[Tin]

These battery are not something new just recycled claims and misleading and missing information IMO. The fact that you were lead to believe they are not AGM batteries is a prime example. On Soneil's site under batteries this is what they say:

Battery Overview & Technology

Next Generation Technology
Soneil Advance Technology Batteries use a unique micro-porous high absorbent glass mat (AGM) chemistry that involves a thick Calcium-Selenium alloy plate to ensure sustained performance, and a Silicon Dioxide based electrolyte solution to maximize efficiency. During the reaction process, the electrolyte solution prevents the active material from becoming delicate and breaking, thereby improving battery cycle life while maintaining performance and quality.

[Tin]

If you click on their brochures link you find this. Hey look "New Generation AGM Battery"

[Tin]

The bottom line if these batteries were as good as their clams, everyone would want a piece of them and you would see them nationally branded and distributed throughout the world. They would be in every golf cart, yacht, rv, off grid solar and home electronics, imagine lithium at 1/3 the price.
I would buy good quality AGM like Trojan or Lifeline with plenty of documentation and third party testing and millions of happy costumers with great warranties in all 50 states including Mexico and Canada. I could not imagine trying to make a claim on the 2 year workmanship warranty from an out of country seller with no presence in the USA. I would imagine it to be financially unenforceable.

Edit: My next set hopefully will be a nice pair of heated Battle Borns.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Tin

These battery are not something new just recycled claims and misleading and missing information IMO. The fact that you were lead to believe they are not AGM batteries is a prime example. On Soneil's site under batteries this is what they say:

Battery Overview & Technology

Next Generation Technology
Soneil Advance Technology Batteries use a unique micro-porous high absorbent glass mat (AGM) chemistry that involves a thick Calcium-Selenium alloy plate to ensure sustained performance, and a Silicon Dioxide based electrolyte solution to maximize efficiency. During the reaction process, the electrolyte solution prevents the active material from becoming delicate and breaking, thereby improving battery cycle life while maintaining performance and quality.

Originally Posted by Tin

If you click on their brochures link you find this. Hey look "New Generation AGM Battery"

Originally Posted by Tin

The bottom line if these batteries were as good as their clams, everyone would want a piece of them and you would see them nationally branded and distributed throughout the world. They would be in every golf cart, yacht, rv, off grid solar and home electronics, imagine lithium at 1/3 the price.
I would buy good quality AGM like Trojan or Lifeline with plenty of documentation and third party testing and millions of happy costumers with great warranties in all 50 states including Mexico and Canada. I could not imagine trying to make a claim on the 2 year workmanship warranty from an out of country seller with no presence in the USA. I would imagine it to be financially unenforceable.

Edit: My next set hopefully will be a nice pair of heated Battle Borns.

So you still have no evidence to back up your previous scam statements and seem to have some sort of bone to pick. Arrests and convictions would be nice.

These are lead batteries, similar to conventional AGM's, that use SiO2 as a medium. I know that and always have. In post #3 perhaps I should have said "conventional" AGM's. I'm not perfect. The difference is SiO2 and perhaps a different style of mat.

Again, Azimuth has been in business since 2016 and I can find no evidence they're a scam, and you provided no evidence.

Over time I'll be posting my results. Hopefully we'll both be here 6-10 years from now. "The bottom line" is after I get a good use of these batteries I'l know if they are what they claim or I've made an error in judgement that I will accept. Time will tell.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Rossue]

Wow- 4 whole years in biz? Not worth mentioning .

[Perry Butler]

I received the batteries late this morning. They arrived charged to 12.6 volts (85%). After installing I hooked our 100 watt Renogy panel to the Victron 100/20 controller at about 2 pm this afternoon and changed absorption to 14.6 and float to 13.6.

It is now three hours since the sun went down and the batteries are holding around 13 volts (12.81 is 95% and 13.35 is 100%). Perhaps tomorrow we can get them to 13.35 volts.

Tomorrow we travel to Cochise Stronghold tomorrow for three days where they have created some new campsites, but no services. We'll try to get a nice sunny site and see if the batteries will go to 13.35 for 100% fill. We only have three nights there and then head to Gilbert Ray where we won't hook to electricity and give them a decent tryout.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Wow- 4 whole years in biz? Not worth mentioning .

Tim claimed scams. Scams are usually here today and gone tomorrow, and with a scam there is evidence of the scam with victims, arrest warrants, arrests, and/or convictions. I can't find any evidence, believe me, I've looked.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Rossue]

Enjoy the new batteries. The way I see it you paid a $500 premium over a reputable AGM battery set. Only time will tell- about 5 years(hopefully)- and so there really is nothing more to say except good luck & Happy Trails.

[Greg A]

Personally, I think those Crown AGM’s you had that were replaced under warranty and then the replacements go south at 2 years were the Scam.
I think these will do well for you, and every year they go past four years, you’re getting more bang for the buck then ur previous batteries. I’m just hoping you don’t have to deal with any more battery issues on trips for years to come.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

So you still have no evidence to back up your previous scam statements and seem to have some sort of bone to pick. Arrests and convictions would be nice.

First: I have no bones to pick with you.

Second: I am not trying to provide "You" with any evidence period. You have already stated your reasoning and battery purchase I wish you luck.

My comments are not personal, I ( and others ) am merely trying to point out the oblivious red flags and misleading marketing IMO.

Third: " Arrests and convictions " Scams happen everyday in this country and many have been going on for decades not just three months ? ?.


Scam (noun)
: a dishonest way to make money by deceiving people
She was the victim of an insurance scam.
a sophisticated credit card scam
a scam artist

Scam (verb)

1. : to deceive and take money from (someone)
The company scammed hundreds of people out of their life savings.
I could tell they were scamming you and charging too much.

2. : to get (something, such as money) by deceiving someone
They scammed a lot of money from unwary customers.

[JeffreyG]

I will agree with Tin that Soleil seems to deliberately obfuscate that what they are selling is essentially an AGM lead-acid battery.

I'm not a expert in AGM battery pricing, but the Soleil batteries seem to be priced at a significant premium over most other lead acid options. They don't come with exceptional warranty or other consideration, so their pricing can only be justified by their claims.

And so, obviously the only place I can see claims differing from conventional AGM is in the area of DoD. The problem here is, 'abuse' of DoD is not something that shows up immediately. Worse, the ability of many users to adequately watch this parameter is limited by equipment and effort. I guess I feel that Soleil really needs to provide some independent testing demonstrating a difference if they were to get my business.

I'm not sure PerryB67 will really be able to give us a clear view, despite offering to be the guinea pig. In real world use, every discharge cycle will be different and we simply cannot watch his set of batteries head to head against another set of AGMs to see if there really is a difference.

Knowing what I do know of battery technology and chemistry, I'm skeptical. There simply is no free lunch. If there was some manufacturing method that gave an AGM lead-acid the DoD life cycle curve of a LiFeP04, it would have made it into publications. These batteries stand 100% on manufacturer claims, which are the worst form of evidence.

Finally, PerryB67's plan mostly seems to be to run the dual 260 Ah AGMs to 30% discharge, and more in difficult situations. That should work just fine, but it seems a $450 pair of 6V AGMs should be able to do it. Somehow I'm missing the incentive for the price of these.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

to run the dual 260 Ah AGMs to 30% discharge,

The problems is most 12 volt appliances do not play well with high voltage or low voltage anyway, so what is the point? most major appliances will start having problems below 12 volts, again what is the advantage.

[Tin]

John Fetter with Battery University put it perfectly to a commenter in a article titled

"BU-202: New Lead Acid Systems"

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_systems

On June 19, 2017 at 2:05pm
Peter Seligman wrote:
What can you tell us about Lead Crystal batteries? They claim very high cycle life - 1200 cycles at 80% DoD and 40degC

On July 4, 2017 at 4:12pm
John Fetter wrote:
They are a fashion item. Made by none of the long established brands. Read between the lines.

On July 5, 2017 at 4:26pm
Peter Seligman wrote:
I prefer independent hard data to reading between lines. An independent tester M j Lorton tested a Lead-crystal battery vs a conventional gel cell. In both cases he flattened the battery completely every day and recharged on a 24 hour cycle. After 10 cycles the conventional gel cell was down to 50% capacity. After six months the lead crystal was still providing 75% of its nominal capacity. That’s why I thought that Battery University should consider it a serious contender.

On July 6, 2017 at 5:27pm

John Fetter wrote:
Peter - The people commenting on this page are independent contributors - people who like to discuss battery technology.
I can see plenty of applications for batteries that deliver a fairly steady output voltage. I can see only limited applications for batteries that deliver a falling output voltage. But I am scratching my head to figure out what application there is for a battery that delivers zero volts. Most modern battery powered electrics and electronics will switch off when the battery voltage falls below optimum, to prevent malfunction of the equipment.
I would suggest that most people will readily accept the validity of a battery test run by a certified laboratory. I have looked everywhere. I have been unable to find any test results performed by a certified laboratory on lead crystal. Come to think of it, I have not seen an established battery brand on a lead crystal battery.
Running a battery test that compares lead crystal with gel, by repeatedly discharging a down to zero volts, merely demonstrates that lead crystal can do this better than a seriously handicapped lead-acid technology called gel. Gel cannot withstand total discharge.

On July 7, 2017 at 6:27pm
Peter Seligman wrote:

Thanks John. I’m not saying your contributors aren’t independent but referred to your suggestion to read between the lines (no data there). I agree with your comment that flattening to zero V does not represent normal use.
Since no data is available except Lorton’s I can only quote from the manufacturer’s data sheet. The CNFJ-90 sheet gives graphs showing 525 cycles at 100% DoD at 40 degrees C through to 5026 cycles at 20% DoD. I thought these are impressive numbers and was hoping to get some verification or otherwise through Battery University.
Why hasn’t a certified lab tested these batteries? Because they are sham? How would they know that if they hadn’t tested them?

On July 10, 2017 at 9:54am

John Fetter wrote:
Laboratories are like most businesses - they rely on work that brings in money. It probably costs around $100,000 to run a life cycle test. New types of batteries are put on the market all the time. There is no reason they would want to test products just for the sake of it. If the manufacturers of lead crystal are confident their product is good, they would not hesitate to commission at least one independent laboratory.