Soneil’s SiO2 Batteries - Somebody Has To Try Them!

[Perry Butler]

Since our Crown AGM batteries are failing we need new batteries. My knowledge of batteries is much greater today than 2 ½ years ago when we ordered our Crown AGM 220 ah 6 volt batteries.

I don’t want plain flooded,because of the checking needed. I made that decision a few campers/batteries ago.

We’ve had AGM’s and want more than 110 ah’s available for extended stays in cloudy weather.

Don’t want Lithium because:

• We camp in cold weather (<30 F) and reading Battleborn’s literature they really don’t like cold.
  
  
• Our camper sits in a sunny seasonal site in the bottom of the Root River in the summer where the batteries easily will get over 110 F on the south end of the camper where our batteries are located. Battleborn states their batteries don’t like this situation either.
  
  
• Lithium is a new technology for RV batteries and the jury is still out on how long they actually will last, plus the battery management system is subject to long term failure. I know of a Battleborn failure. Nothing is perfect.
  
  
• Lithium is environmentally unfriendly. Plus check out how it is mined.
  
  
• Cost of a Battleborn is $9 an amp hour. Too expensive.

If I’m going to gamble I may as well try Soneil’s SiO2 purchased from Azimuth Solar. I got into a group purchase and will be getting two 260 ah 6 volt batteries for $1,000 delivered to a UPS depot here in Tucson on Feb 18. Luck was on my side getting into this group purchase.

My reasons for SiO2:

• We camp in cold weather and SiO2 work down to -40F (-40C).
  
  
• They also work up to 149F (60C) so they’ll be able to handle the heat at our seasonal campground.
  
  
• The same charging profile as lithium is used, so the batteries will charge quickly.
  
  
• 260 ah’s vs 100 ah’s for lithium, so for an extra $100 I’ll get an additional 160 ah’s.
  
  
• Silicon is environmentally friendly and is the second most abundant element on the earth’s crust.
  
  
• Cost is only $3.48 an amp hour, much cheaper than lithium.

The jury is definitely out on SiO2, but I’ve gambled and won before (and lost at times). In my farming days I started using conservation tillage in 1974, decades before others, dried corn by air with advice from the University of Minnesota decades before it became accepted, bought my first computer in 1979 (Apple II), cloned and centrally managed computers before any other school in our area, and was the first in the area to use multiple virtual servers for cost savings and easy backups. These are just a few. Gambling on technology is not new to me!

I realize there is no free lunch, so will this be one of my few wasted purchases, or another successful purchase? Time will tell, and I’ll update my experience in this thread over time.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

Fitting:

The dual six volt SiO2’s will fit in Escape's series 24 battery box. I would have had to purchase or manufacture a new battery box to use their two 100 ah twelve volt batteries. Theoretically 6 volts are more robust than 12 volt batteries, but that didn’t prove true with my 6v Crown batteries.

Charging:

I currently have a 2018 GoPower controller for my rooftop 170 watt GoPower panel supplied by ETI. This GoPower controller does NOT have a lithium charging profile.

I also have a Victron 100/20 controller for our 100 watt Renogy portable panels that can adjust the profile. For the time being I’ll be using this Victron/Renogy to charge the SiO2’s as much as possible/convenient.

I also have a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor.

For the past year I’ve been noticing that when the Victron 100/20 reads that the batteries are 100% charged the GoPower reads that the batteries are only 90% charged and both will read 12.6 - 12.75 volts an hour or so after the sun goes down. A couple of times a week the GoPower will display 100% charged and read 12.8 - 12.85 volts an hour or two after the sun goes down. For this reason I’m thinking of purchasing a new GoPower with a lithium profile to get the SiO2’s topped off. I don't buy into the PWM vs MPPT argument and find it nothing but splitting hairs. YMMV.

The charging profile for SiO2 is the same as a lithium profile. Sheri at Azimuth Solar doesn’t worry about my current setup for this winter, but agrees. for best practices, I should change out the GoPower controller with another controller that has a lithium profile some time in the next 6 months. The Victron/Renogy pair will be able to top off the batteries for the time being.

That's all for now. At 11 pm tonight we leave Tucson for Cardinal Stadium in Glendale for our first Covid-19 vaccine shot at 2:39 am, and then I'll drive back to Tucson. We plan on sleeping late tomorrow morning!

Enjoy,

Perry

[Greg A]

Very interesting choice, Perry. Looking forward to seeing how these work out for you.

[rbryan4]

Good for you Perry. You may be blazing a trail.

[Centex]

Very interesting indeed and I look forward to following your experience hoping the best toward satisfying your wants and needs. From what you've explained I can certainly understand your willingness to enter into this "gamble" (nothing ventured, nothing gained ).

As you doubtless well know, battery 'economics' is fraught with niggling details making meaningful apples-to-apples comparison a matter of 'fine print' and good disclosure / understanding of the basis of such comparisons.

I'm having some difficulty replicating your $9/aH (Battleborn) vs $3.48/aH (Soneil) comparison, particularly in consideration of manufacturer recommended max DoD, manufacturer claimed charging cycles at recommended DoD, and number of batteries required to support a 12V system. Not suggesting there's anything amiss with your numbers, just that I'm struggling to understand the basis, perhaps you could explain that for my benefit and appreciation by all readers?

I do very much recognize that some of the advantages you hope to realize with the SiO2 are a function of the environmental conditions under which you use your RV, and that certainly has "value" which may be hard to quantify in dollars. No worries, that's good value for you nonetheless, though it may not be for all users (e.g. I don't happen to subject batteries to the very low-temperatures you do, but that's just me - others may well camp or maintain their trailers in those extremes (again, no worries).

Similar can be said about other differences relating to environmental impact concerns, etc (again, fair and valid considerations with "value" distinct from 'user dollar-economics' IMO).

All a long way to say that I'm intrigued as you obviously are with the pros and cons of different battery technologies for RV applications. I need to make some important purchase decisions in this regard this calendar year; decisions which I tend to make on the basis of estimates of 'user-dollar life-cycle cost' (YMMV). I hope and trust that as you share your experience you'll provide complete basis for your data and conclusions to help the rest of us fully understand those as they may relate to, or be extrapolated to, our own use-habits and requirements.

And of course, wishing you Happy Trails on your ongoing travels (congrats on the covid jab arrangements)!

[Vermilye]

There is a long thread at RV.Net that started out discussing lithium, but morphed into SiO2 that is worth reading. Plenty of other threads at the site - search SIO2...

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Centex

As you doubtless well know, battery 'economics' is fraught with niggling details making meaningful apples-to-apples comparison a matter of 'fine print' and good disclosure / understanding of the basis of such comparisons.

I agree, you never will get an apples to apples comparison between two users in the real world because each user’s parameters are different. Our parameters are:

• I’ve eliminated flooded and AGM’s.
  
  
• We don’t have an inverter nor need one.
  
  
• Our batteries need to work in cold as well as a warm environment.
  
  
• Our budget was $1500 for batteries, another controller, and other bits. I provide all the labor.
  
  
• We have 170 watts on the roof, 100 watts portable, and plan to install another 100 watts on the roof this summer (part of the $1,500 budget). In theory we’ll have 370 watts on paper, but it’s the real ah’s into the batteries that counts.
  
  
• We use from 12 to 35 ah’s a day. The 35 ah's are when running the furnance in temps below freezing.
  
  
• I don’t and won’t build a Li battery system, so was left with Battleborn or Renogy Li’s or Soniel SiO2
  
  
• Wanted to fit the batteries in our existing battery box.

We’ve never reached 100% discharge so I’m comparing a 100 ah Li vs a 260 ah SiO2 (remember we only have $1,500 total to spend) that parameter applies. I’m not comparing 100 ah’s vs 100 ah’s. We want more ah’s for longer stays without adequate solar.

Six years ago I gave up my Minnesota Low Voltage Electrical License. It was used to wire communications in our school according to Minnesota law. In other words we didn’t have to hire a licensed electrician to inspect my work and my work could be bonded. That knowledge is enough to be dangerous when in an unfamiliar electrical area. At best it gave me a simple step up from a newbie!

Originally Posted by Centex

I'm having some difficulty replicating your $9/aH (Battleborn) vs $3.48/aH (Soneil) comparison, particularly in consideration of manufacturer recommended max DoD, manufacturer claimed charging cycles at recommended DoD, and number of batteries required to support a 12 V system. Not suggesting there's anything amiss with your numbers, just that I'm struggling to understand the basis, perhaps you could explain that for my benefit and appreciation by all readers?

According to Battleborns website, 2/14/21, a 100 ah Battleborn sells for $899 shipped. I rounded to $900 for simplicity. $900/100 ah’s is $9/ah.

The dual 260 ah SiO2 we’re getting sold for $1,000 shipped, so no rounding was needed. $1,000/260 ah is $3.85. My math was off in the first post by my being dyslexic (.84615384615 vs the .48 I used). Shoot me! It actually should be $9/ah for Battleborn vs $3,85/ah for Soniel SiO2. Quite a difference in initial cost. All things being equal (they never are though) we get more bang for the buck with SiO2.

Originally Posted by Centex

I do very much recognize that some of the advantages you hope to realize with the SiO2 are a function of the environmental conditions under which you use your RV, and that certainly has "value" which may be hard to quantify in dollars. No worries, that's good value for you nonetheless, though it may not be for all users (e.g. I don't happen to subject batteries to the very low-temperatures you do, but that's just me - others may well camp or maintain their trailers in those extremes (again, no worries).

Similar can be said about other differences relating to environmental impact concerns, etc (again, fair and valid considerations with "value" distinct from 'user dollar-economics' IMO).

Lets say we’re up north, it’s 30F at night, rainy/cloudy, and we’re underneath shade for a week, (we’ve already seen that on this trip, but we drove on day four instead of sat there) so we’re using our 31 ah/s a day. The Battleborns are depleted (100% DOD) on night four. OTOH, the SiO2’s have used 217 ah’s so have 43 ah’s still in the tank. That’s 83% DOD and we haven’t been cold for the last 3 ½ nights. That in reality will probably only happen once a year.

Does one really believe any battery can handle a theoretical 100% DOD every cycle? I don’t, but 100 useable ah’s are not enough for us. Terry is sick and tired of hearing me say, “we need to conserve our battery energy." Our friends with two 6v Lifeline AGM’s have to conserve too.

I foresee an average 30% at the most DOD for the 260 ah SiO2, with an occasional 40-60% DOD. Using that parameter for us, SiO2 should easily last 10 or more years, similar to Lithium.

Hope this gives more reasoning for our decision. Everyone’s parameters are different and you need to base your decision on your camping style and beliefs. There are NO apples to apples.

BTY, if these batteries crap out, like our Crowns, I'll be up here admitting their failure. I wish more would admit the failures.

Enjoy,

Perry

PS: at 10:45 last night we left Tucson for our Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine shot at Cardinal Stadium in Glendale,AZ and arrived back in Tucson at 4;30 am. I slept till 8:30, but Terry ‘s still sleeping. That, and being dyslexic, I’ve posted this too soon so there are probably mistakes. Feel free to correct any mistakes or ask for clarifications.

I probably should put in smilies, but after last night's jaunt I'm still tired. Everyone please take what I've said in a positive note.

The anal-retentive 240 minute editing window is running out.

[Centex]

Thanks for the clarification, your actual 2-for$1000 was what I missed, no worries!

I'm glad that there seem to be some bona-fide useable / competitive options in this RV power-storage market, 'one-size' won't fit all, choice is good, IMO

Congrats on the successful covid jab-run, glad you're 'home safe' albeit a bit understandably tired after that jaunt

[Greg A]

I’ve done a little bit more reading on the Si02 batteries and as Alan and Perry pointed out it’s very difficult to get accurate head to head comparisons.

I’m still looking at the 10 year warranty on the Battleborns vs 2 year or less warranty on other batteries including the Si02. There is enough history on the use of Battleborns approaching 10 years and still going strong that I’ve ordered them. Mine were Escapees price of $849.00 ea with no shipping and no tax.

There are a number of new battery chemistry’s coming out and Perry’s choice is perfect for his situation. Love that someone is putting these in that we can follow.

For our situation, I wanted 10 years of guaranteed performance and not have to think about batteries going FT. Plus, for four years Battleborn will swap out my batteries if they make any improvements to the batteries under Escapees benefits.

[Perry Butler]

Is anyone else here using SiO2 batteries?

If you don't want to post it here, please send me a PM so we can discuss your experiences privately.

Thanks,

Perry

[NRJS]

I too am looking at the Soniels.
I see you have opted for 6v 260ah which are EFSL (light traction )
I was under the impression the 12v 100ah EFSN was more appropriate for a rv\solar setup.

Just a bit confused about EFSN vs EFSL.
Cheers
Nigel

[HarleyD]

Perry,
Thanks for being the pioneer, we are still a couple of years from needing replacement batteries. We will be watching to see how things go and what successes and roadblocks you may encounter. This forum is excellent for this type of adventure, again, THX!

[Mike G]

That sounds exciting, Perry! SiO2 sounds promising. And I doubt you'd need to scrounge a handful of extra watts by going with MPPT when you have that much storage, so PWM is the way to go.

[Brian B-P]

Just because it hasn't yet come up in this thread, I'll mention that these "SiO2" batteries are specific type of lead-acid, and presumably have the same fundamental electrochemistry. In this case the electrolyte is soaked up in a glass fibre mat, so it is specifically an AGM lead-acid battery. Like any other lead-acid battery, a charged battery has lead on one electrode, lead oxide on the other, and an acidic electrolyte. With a sulfuric acid electrolyte, it discharges to leave lead sulphate on both electrodes and a weakly acidic electrolyte. Presumably the "SiO2" batteries leave lead silicate when discharged, but the sellers of these things (Soneil, and Azimuth Solar who gets them from Soneil, in the case of this particular brand) provide no plausible technical information.

Does anyone know who actually makes these batteries? It might be Soneil's factory in China, but it could be anyone. A discussion in the DIY Solar Forum mentions two other brands: Betta Batteries (Australia) and Green Rhino (Germany). Betta seems to have vanished (the website - http://www.leadcrystalbatteries.com.au/ - is dead), but there are other sources in Australia, where this type of battery seems to be somewhat popular. Green Rhino Energy has an extensive line of what they call "crystal" batteries - one of the commonly used and misleading terms.

A listing from Alpha Energy (one of the Australian suppliers) has the most reasonable technical description I've seen yet:

The combination of AGM separator, high-purity lead calcium selenium plates, specially formulated SiO2 electrolyte solution solidifies into a white crystalline salt during charging.

Lead Crystal® brand distributor - this appears to be the brand that came from Betta Batteries, which in turn got them from a factory in China.

Another brand : Pure Energy Pb Crystal

[BigSwede]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

[*]Silicon is environmentally friendly and is the second most abundant element on the earth’s crust.

SiO2 batteries are still lead batteries (note how heavy they are), perhaps not as environmentally damaging as lithium mining, but far from innocuous.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by BigSwede

SiO2 batteries are still lead batteries (note how heavy they are)...

True... the same amount of lead (and other metals such as selenium) as other lead-acid batteries of the same size and capacity.

[Tin]

Perry I read your posts several times and I understand your problem I just don't understand the logic. These so called "crystal" batteries are just lead acid batteries manufactured in China and sold to resellers (you can buy them cheap on alibaba). They seem to be a chemical variant of AGM batteries with a ton of unsubstantiated hyperbole and marketing. I could not find ANY reputable third party testing of these batteries as stated, which have been around since the 70's (not a good sign).
I wish you luck but 1000 bucks for two lead acid batteries with a "2 Years WORKMANSHIP" warranty from china, good luck with that? To me there are much better ways to achieve your goals. if it's too good to be true, it probably is.


Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me!
Fool me three times, shame on both of us!!!
Fool me four times ..........................

[Perry Butler]

Brian B-P, Big Swede, and Tin, you've said nothing I didn't know or wonder about.

It's my money, not yours. If the batteries crap out I can lose $1,000. I know that and will report it here. I don't know what else to say. I'm not here to argue.

Perry

[gbaglo]

Or listen, apparently.

[Centex]

I say kudos for going with what your best judgment leads you to with your eyes wide open, Perry

I, for one, recognize that

• Each user likely has in some measure unique but perfectly legitimate criteria for themselves
• One solution isn't best for all individuals
• There's a world of legitimate difference between 'listening' and 'concluding that what is said represents what in your own best interests'

I applaud your willingness to take a bit of economic risk in order to perhaps realize great benefit beyond just economics. Gotta respect the well-considered pioneering spirit, IMO.