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07-18-2016, 07:52 AM
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#81
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2017 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 15,559
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If the batteries are inside, I would consider under the passenger dinette for both, where mine were installed from the factory. There is already more weight on the driver side of the trailer, and this would help balance out the side=to=side loading.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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07-18-2016, 10:22 AM
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#82
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 - "Felicity"
Posts: 2,945
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With technology progress and scale-up of production we might see a DC unit affordable someday.......
Solar Cooling Systems | Model- K25FT-4
__________________
Charlie Y
Need custom storage to your design? Don't drill holes!
www.RVWidgetWorks.com
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07-18-2016, 10:25 AM
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#83
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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I was thinking propane, similar to our refrigerators, cooling down the interiors.
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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07-18-2016, 12:44 PM
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#84
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
As I'm sure you've gathered this is exactly what I'm thinking except for the propane staying together and centered against the front wall and the batteries flanking the sides. The reasoning being that single propane holders appear tough to come by and I figure it will be easier to extend wiring than to deal with the placement of the dual regulator and associated rework of the piping. It also allows the best access to the batteries without them "caged in" by the condenser and tanks.
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That works too, but here's my logic, in case some of it is useful: - The propane tanks weigh less than the batteries, so structurally it's easier to accommodate the propane perched on the rails rather than the batteries.
- A side-by-side pair of propane tanks is wider than a battery box, so if the propane is in the middle the batteries would need to be cantilevered out, while outboard propane can just sit directly on the frame rails.
- Propane tanks are changed more often than batteries, so having the propane on the outside is better for access.
- The propane tanks easily come off completely for access to the batteries, but batteries don't come out easily, so they would need to be completely outboard of the frame and low to make propane access easily.
I agree that most propane holders are for two tanks - and consist of nothing but a oval base and threaded rod clamp bar - but there are single-tank holders. I think a desirable holder would be the type that straps the tank against a post, so with the tank out there isn't much in the way. The regulator can just screw onto a plate, and the plumbing from it to the tanks is just a pair of pigtail hoses, which come ready-made in range of lengths.
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07-18-2016, 12:54 PM
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#85
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bennett
If the batteries are inside, I would consider under the passenger dinette for both, where mine were installed from the factory. There is already more weight on the driver side of the trailer, and this would help balance out the side=to=side loading.
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Thanks for the info. I had originally thought about one on each side to proportion the weight, but what you say makes sense. Based on measurements I can fit the batteries end-to-end in a special purpose box that can be vented. This is a compelling way to avoid the issues with too much on the tongue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
That works too, but here's my logic, in case some of it is useful: - The propane tanks weigh less than the batteries, so structurally it's easier to accommodate the propane perched on the rails rather than the batteries.
- A side-by-side pair of propane tanks is wider than a battery box, so if the propane is in the middle the batteries would need to be cantilevered out, while outboard propane can just sit directly on the frame rails.
- Propane tanks are changed more often than batteries, so having the propane on the outside is better for access.
- The propane tanks easily come off completely for access to the batteries, but batteries don't come out easily, so they would need to be completely outboard of the frame and low to make propane access easily.
I agree that most propane holders are for two tanks - and consist of nothing but a oval base and threaded rod clamp bar - but there are single-tank holders. I think a desirable holder would be the type that straps the tank against a post, so with the tank out there isn't much in the way. The regulator can just screw onto a plate, and the plumbing from it to the tanks is just a pair of pigtail hoses, which come ready-made in range of lengths.
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I agree with everything you've said which supports the idea further to get the batteries relocated to a reasonable location.
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07-18-2016, 12:54 PM
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#86
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008
I was thinking propane, similar to our refrigerators, cooling down the interiors.
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If this split style of compressor-based air conditioning system looks like a challenge to mount, wait until you see an absorption cooler large enough to cool the trailer! Imagine the cooling unit of a refrigerator, at least ten times bigger, and impossible to separate into two units... and working when it's in the mood.
Seriously, the big cooling units on refrigerated food trailers, which are diesel fueled and so could use an absorption design, are all compressor-based and run by diesel engines.
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07-18-2016, 01:05 PM
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#87
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractors1
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The current approach to battery-powered air conditioning is to use a suitable inverter to run a 120V AC system. The one in the link runs on 48V DC so it would need an expensive converter to run from a 12V battery bank, so it doesn't have an advantage over an inverter and 120V AC air conditioner. If the air conditioner compressor ran on 12V DC, it would need large power cables.
Smaller air conditioners than most RVs use, often split like Dave's system, are used to cool the cabs and sleepers of long-haul trucks during rest stops. You can buy them from Dometic. They run from batteries which are recharged while driving, and normally run on 120V AC from a suitable inverter.
Kimberley - the Australian maker of expensive caravans for back country camping - already promotes running an air conditioner from battery power, with a large solar system charging the battery.
I think the air conditioning hardware is worked out an readily available (although expensive); the challenge of off-the-grid air conditioning is the source of energy, so the needed improvements are in solar panel and lithium battery cost.
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07-18-2016, 01:58 PM
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#88
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 2013 19' & 2013 15B
Posts: 2,636
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With the sketch that Brian posted, you may have to customize your regulators for the propane tanks because of the increased separation between the two tanks. I know that my current regulator on my 19' would not likely work if the tanks were separated by more than a few inches.
In my 19', the dual 6V batteries are in a vented box inside the passenger dinette bench. I know that due to concerns regarding weight distribution, Escape no longer offers that option in new trailers, but it would be relatively simple to move your batteries to this location from the exterior. Adding your compressor to the front of the frame should offset most of the unloading of your hitch that would result from moving the batteries inside.
__________________
2013 19' \ 2013 15B, 2020 Toyota 4Runner TRD Offroad
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it." - 1907, Maurice Switzer
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07-18-2016, 02:09 PM
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#89
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice-breaker
In my 19', the dual 6V batteries are in a vented box inside the passenger dinette bench. I know that due to concerns regarding weight distribution, Escape no longer offers that option in new trailers, but it would be relatively simple to move your batteries to this location from the exterior. Adding your compressor to the front of the frame should offset most of the unloading of your hitch that would result from moving the batteries inside.
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Do you happen to have any information on the battery box from Escape and possibly a picture or two? The only way I think I can make this work without major surgery under the bench is with an end-to-end configuration using the box that I previously posted that is made by Quickcable. It will run me about $225 with the vent kit through Fastenal. I just want to explore this a bit more before pulling the trigger because this is a bit more cost than I envisioned just to relocate the batteries.
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07-18-2016, 02:24 PM
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#90
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice-breaker
With the sketch that Brian posted, you may have to customize your regulators for the propane tanks because of the increased separation between the two tanks. I know that my current regulator on my 19' would not likely work if the tanks were separated by more than a few inches.
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All you have to do is get longer pigtails. I have not verified the regulator connection but I think these are right:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-59053-P.../dp/B0014E3MSS
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07-18-2016, 02:27 PM
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#91
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice-breaker
With the sketch that Brian posted, you may have to customize your regulators for the propane tanks because of the increased separation between the two tanks. I know that my current regulator on my 19' would not likely work if the tanks were separated by more than a few inches.
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Yes, but just swap for longer " pigtails" - the hoses from tanks to regulator. 1/4" male inverted flare by QCC hose assemblies are available in lengths from 18" to ten feet.
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07-18-2016, 02:29 PM
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#92
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Do you happen to have any information on the battery box from Escape and possibly a picture or two? The only way I think I can make this work without major surgery under the bench is with an end-to-end configuration using the box that I previously posted that is made by Quickcable. It will run me about $225 with the vent kit through Fastenal. I just want to explore this a bit more before pulling the trigger because this is a bit more cost than I envisioned just to relocate the batteries.
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At that price it would be cheaper to install 2 smaller ventilated boxes, one under street and on under curb side dinette, they can be founder about $40 each.
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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07-29-2016, 10:26 AM
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#93
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,146
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Some more progress
Need to take some more photos, but wanted to check in with some progress. Relocated the batteries off the tongue to the curb side dinette seat in an end-to-end configuration as rearward as possible with vented box by Quickcable. Drain line and interconnecting power line (outdoor unit to indoor unit) are roughed in through the cabinet and down the curb side corner. Drain will exit directly through the floor. Power line comes across the front of the trailer and exits with the main power feed through the floor on the driver's side near the other factory wiring penetrations. Refrigerant lines route through cabinet and down the driver's side corner as a mirror image of the drain/power configuration. Lines will exit through the floor and turn along frame. New dual 15 amp breaker (one spare) added in the WFCO power center.
The cabinet structure and the removable wall pieces in the front corners have made it possible to make this look really clean. The oak grilles match the cabinets almost exactly.
Now I need to figure out the arrangement for the condenser on the tongue and hopefully have this thing fired up for an early August trip.
I'll add some more pictures soon. Let me know if you want to see shots of anything in particular.
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07-29-2016, 11:19 AM
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#94
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Ventura County, California
Trailer: 2013 19 Escape
Posts: 7,204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Need to take some more photos, but wanted to check in with some progress. Relocated the batteries off the tongue to the curb side dinette seat in an end-to-end configuration as rearward as possible with vented box by Quickcable. Drain line and interconnecting power line (outdoor unit to indoor unit) are roughed in through the cabinet and down the curb side corner. Drain will exit directly through the floor. Power line comes across the front of the trailer and exits with the main power feed through the floor on the driver's side near the other factory wiring penetrations. Refrigerant lines route through cabinet and down the driver's side corner as a mirror image of the drain/power configuration. Lines will exit through the floor and turn along frame. New dual 15 amp breaker (one spare) added in the WFCO power center.
The cabinet structure and the removable wall pieces in the front corners have made it possible to make this look really clean. The oak grilles match the cabinets almost exactly.
Now I need to figure out the arrangement for the condenser on the tongue and hopefully have this thing fired up for an early August trip.
I'll add some more pictures soon. Let me know if you want to see shots of anything in particular.
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Brilliant ! Great looking job installing in your cabinet ! My hat is off to you ! Pat
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07-29-2016, 02:48 PM
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#95
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Looking good!
I would be interested in seeing how that battery box packages under the dinette seat, but there's no rush.
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07-29-2016, 08:34 PM
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#96
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Looking good!
I would be interested in seeing how that battery box packages under the dinette seat, but there's no rush.
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Here is a shot. Still deciding on exact placement. It is right over the frame rail which is good. I figure as far rearward as possible is best, but you lose all practical functionality of the dinette bench end door. Haven't bolted it down yet!
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07-29-2016, 09:35 PM
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#97
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 - "Felicity"
Posts: 2,945
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I'd shove it back at least far enough to get a few bottles of wine in the door..........
__________________
Charlie Y
Need custom storage to your design? Don't drill holes!
www.RVWidgetWorks.com
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07-29-2016, 10:52 PM
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#98
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Fremont, California
Trailer: 2016 21/ '16 Tundra 4.6L Dbl. Cab
Posts: 1,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractors1
I'd shove it back at least far enough to get a few bottles of wine in the door..........
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Good for you, Charlie! Always thinkin !
__________________
Steve and Debbie
2016 - 21'
“Get out the map and lay your finger anywhere down” -Indigo Girls
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07-30-2016, 12:16 AM
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#99
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Here is a shot. Still deciding on exact placement. It is right over the frame rail which is good. I figure as far rearward as possible is best, but you lose all practical functionality of the dinette bench end door.
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I agree that sitting right over the frame rail is structurally ideal, although I'm sure further outboard could be managed, perhaps with some bracing assistance. Is there room to shift the box outboard to gain a slice of storage space, and still be able to open the top of the box?
While rearward is preferable to compensate for the outdoor unit of the air conditioning, the batteries have so much mass that perhaps anywhere under the dinette is enough... I haven't calculated the balance, but that can be done easily if you want to measure the dimensions. It is a shame to sacrifice readily accessible storage space, so even a small compartment left behind the cabinet door is an appealing idea.
If space is left in front of the battery box, it could be accessed through an outside hatch, although the hatch can't get very close to the front corner because the body starts to curve... and the vent hose compromises the top of the space unless it turns sharply and goes out the side wall.
I was hoping that two GC2 batteries might fit in a side-by-side box, rather than this end-to-end box, to use less of the bench length. Although the box has two GC2 batteries in it, the label appears to indicate that it is a 4D box, and indeed it looks like QuickCable's 120177 - which they list as both Group 4D Commercial Battery Box and Dual 6 Volt/4D GC2 Battery Box - which has enough length and more than enough width for the two GC2 batteries. A more square box (such as the QuickCable Dual 6 Volt/GC2 Battery Box) would hold each battery with the long dimension across the trailer width, so the dimension along the trailer length is enough to hold twice the battery width... so less of the bench.
Using the QuickCable boxes for examples, this means a box which is 6-3/4" shorter (along the trailer length) and only needs 1/2" more width. Unfortunately, QuickCable's side-by-side dual GC2 box is almost 2" taller than the 4D box, and perhaps too tall for the seat cabinet. Obviously the extra height is not needed for normal GC2 batteries, so QuickCable is presumably allowing for the extra-tall GC2 batteries which are available.
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07-30-2016, 10:17 PM
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#100
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
It is a shame to sacrifice readily accessible storage space, so even a small compartment left behind the cabinet door is an appealing idea.
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Brian you came through again. It is the 120177 box and I had to make it work because it cannot be returned through Fastenal. I slid the box forward enough to keep some storage behind the access door and vent the box out the front. The seat support structure made it difficult to do it any other way. Battery box lid comes off easily for access.
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