Thanks, Viajante. It's turned out ok so far, and now I've got a good reason to look forward to winter here in Montana! And I don't ski anymore! I realize there are very trailer owners out there that are in the situation to even remotely consider a similar installation - I planned ahead with the selection of options (and deletions) for the new trailer, and I was willing to attempt it - If it hadn't gone as well as it did, you would have never heard about it!
Jeff
Catalytic propane heaters won't produce any CO until they have used up almost all of the oxygen.
Well, as long as a couple of windows are cracked open a bit, the oxygen level will remain normal. And there won't be a moisture problem. But it's good that you highlighted the danger, in case some newbies searching for info come across this thread and are warned about the need to maintain a bit of ventilation during catalytic heater use (or use of any other unvented gas-burning items).
__________________ Losing weight puts one at much greater risk of becoming thin.
Homebrewer, does the mfr of that appliance say anything about flue temperatures or a need to have insulating materials around the exhaust flue? My concern would be whether it could affect either the plywood or the fiberglass where you cut the exit hole.
__________________ Losing weight puts one at much greater risk of becoming thin.
Homebrewer, does the mfr of that appliance say anything about flue temperatures or a need to have insulating materials around the exhaust flue? My concern would be whether it could affect either the plywood or the fiberglass where you cut the exit hole.
The Dickinson manual for installation covers the exhaust pipe in some detail, but it does not recommend insulation around the pipe - That's really the opposite of what you need. I haven't given it a complete test yet - I have an infrared camera and temperature probe to get some detailed testing, but it's actually been too warm outside to do this. The exhaust pipe does get hot, but not dangerously hot. I would say it's actually part of the heat that warms the air for the camper, so rather than insulate it, I'm allowing air to circulate around it, and making sure it doesn't contact anything on the way to the exhaust cap. The exhaust pipe is a "pipe within a pipe" with coil spring spacers to keep the inner pipe, which carries the outgoing hot exhaust gas, from touching the outer pipe, which carries the incoming cooler inlet air for combustion. You could compare the heat danger from the exhaust pipe to the pots used for cooking on the stove - the pot, the grill that it sits on, etc. presents a danger also, and could also spill, but everyone is familiar with this. As soon as I get some actual numbers and thermal pictures, I'll post them here - much better than guessing and personal opinions.
The Dickinson manual for installation covers the exhaust pipe in some detail, but it does not recommend insulation around the pipe - That's really the opposite of what you need. I haven't given it a complete test yet - I have an infrared camera and temperature probe to get some detailed testing, but it's actually been too warm outside to do this. The exhaust pipe does get hot, but not dangerously hot. I would say it's actually part of the heat that warms the air for the camper, so rather than insulate it, I'm allowing air to circulate around it, and making sure it doesn't contact anything on the way to the exhaust cap. The exhaust pipe is a "pipe within a pipe" with coil spring spacers to keep the inner pipe, which carries the outgoing hot exhaust gas, from touching the outer pipe, which carries the incoming cooler inlet air for combustion.
Saw this in the manual which makes sense...
*NOTE: When operating on the higher settings, it is recommended to use the fan on a low or medium speed in order to maximize the heat output of the heater but also, to cool the air intake chimney and keep the flames from creating soot. It is far better to save the propane and burn the heater on low with little air blowing, than to burn the heater on high fire without the fan. This will waste propane and heat up the chimney before all the heat can be extracted from the heater.
Note the Weather Cap that can be attached to the exhaust on the roof - this heater is designed for boats, but they don't go 70 mph thru rain and snow, so this cap can be put over the exhaust cap to prevent water getting into the heater thru the exhaust.
That is a nice weather cap. If you haven't done so already I would recommend a note or some type of indicator placed on the furnace when you have the cap on. This way when you go to fire it up in the fall you don't forget to remove it first.
I got to the point where I think the Dickinson heater is complete and operational. We haven't camped in really cold weather yet - just down to 30 degrees at night. However, I just saw another poster with a new '23 E19 with problems in the operation of his heater and all the responses about similar issues - so, since I'm feeling real good about my heater, I thought I'd do a final summary.
When we have camped in somewhat cold weather, it's in the 60s in the evening, so we don't turn it on when we go to bed. Then by 3 AM, it's down in the low 30s outside, and low 40s inside, so I get up to light the heater - takes less than a minute, and it has never failed to light easily the first time. So far I've only operated it on low, but with the fan on high - it's fairly quiet, maybe about like the fan in the converter/power panel. By 7 AM, I get up to make coffee, it's still about 30 outside, but it's 70 inside at head height, colder near the floor - just moving around in the camper distributes the heat somewhat. I then turn the flame off, but leave the fan on high to get the rest of the heat out of the fire box. I have confidence that the heater could easily handle temperatures down in the teens or even lower - I did not expect uniform heating, floor to ceiling, and constant temperature of 70 degrees. I've tried it briefly on high flame, and the heat output is noticeably higher, so I'm happy with the overall performance.
I wanted to make sure it was operating safely, so I've monitored the temperature of the surrounding materials, just feeling the temperature by hand. See the pictures of the heater and exhaust pipe. I've felt the wood frame racks that are withing 1/2" of the heater, the ceramic tiles underneath the cabinet surrounding the exhaust, and the materials in the cabinet where the exhaust exits the camper. None of those areas get any hotter than a hot cup of coffee, even after 4 hours of operation - most were just warm to the touch. I was concerned about what I couldn't see, where the exhaust goes thru the camper roof, so I removed it for inspection after one camping trip with several nights of operation, and at least 4 hours each night. The roof material is fiberglass (of course) plus plastic foam of some kind (the wall material used on the walls) plus plywood. The exhaust cap is designed to maintain a gap between the exhaust pipe and the surrounding materials, but I wanted to do a visual inspection. There was no melting or deformation of the foam, no discoloration of the plywood - it looked just like it did when I drilled the hole. I'll probably inspect it again in the future sometime - it's not difficult to remove the exhaust cap. Finally, the exhaust pipe itself inside the camper does get hot. I've touched it to see if it was a safety hazard - it's not as hot as our hot water kettle when it's boiling, but hotter than a hot cup of coffee. I took some infrared camera pictures of it showing that, yes, it's hot, but unless you want to do some infrared analysis using the emissivity value for the material, it's just approximate. I had my wife hold her hand in the picture, and you can see that it's a similar temperature. Hopefully those pictures show up on this post.
I doubt that my experience will convince anyone to copy this installation, since it's located right where most campers have a kitchen window, and there's no other place to put it, as far as I can tell. Bottom line - I'm extremely happy with the way it works and the way it looks.
I doubt that my experience will convince anyone to copy this installation, since it's located right where most campers have a kitchen window, and there's no other place to put it, as far as I can tell. Bottom line - I'm extremely happy with the way it works and the way it looks.
Sometimes you just have to go with what you think will work best for you. Seems like this installation will do that.
I did use the Newport in one of my boats. Fortunately it was located in an area where the heat could disperse quite well. Certainly reliability was never an issue.
I've used two types of Dickinson diesel heaters and they worked very well. But not everyone would want the sometimes smell of diesel on their clothes.
I was very strongly tempted to install a Dickinson Alaska in my 21. But it would have been at the expense of the drawer stack which would have been too high a price to pay. As you point out, sometimes compromises have to made.
Enjoy being toasty warm on a dark and stormy night.
Just checking in to see if this is still working well for you. I’m looking at doing something similar in an aluminum trailer, but your install is the only one I’ve seen that was above the countertop.
I assume the little fan blows the heat down a bit to compensate for having the heater up high. Does it blow down enough to heat the countertop much? Still looking at countertop materials and wondering if that should be a consideration.
Just checking in to see if this is still working well for you. I’m looking at doing something similar in an aluminum trailer, but your install is the only one I’ve seen that was above the countertop.
I assume the little fan blows the heat down a bit to compensate for having the heater up high. Does it blow down enough to heat the countertop much? Still looking at countertop materials and wondering if that should be a consideration.
Of note for you, they are selling an exhaust stack shroud that you may want to consider if the hot chimney has been an issue.
Thanks again for the detailed installation guide.
Interesting that specs for the RV version state that it is rated up to 5,000 ft. Not sure what happens above 5,000 feet, but if the performance is in any way significantly compromised, then those who spend time above 5,000 feet might want to ask some questions of the manufacturer before considering this option..
Thanks for the question about the Dickinson performance - I've been thinking about a final report, but I wasn't sure anyone would be interested. There's been some questions about how well or quickly it heats up the camper, and concerns about getting some areas too hot, either from the chimney, or heat flow from the fan towards the countertop, as you are asking about. I've had several camping trips in cold (less than 15 deg. F) weather. I've had the trailer in a storage area the last two months while I've spent many hours working in it, on the heater and other modifications. Overall I'm very satisfied with it - the performance is what I had hoped for, but it's been a learning experience. As expected, the heater has much lower heat output than the normal factory supplied Suburban or Dometic furnaces. The Dickinson is rated at 4500 BTUs, where the other two are around 15000 BTUs (I think - other owners could supply the factory specs), and have a more powerful fan to blow the heat into the cabin. The Dickinson has a small computer style fan to blow the heat up around the firebox and out the top-front vent, so heat distribution needs to be augmented (as others had predicted) with other fans. My first attempted design didn't come close to doing the job (all pictures, drawings and parts have been scrapped to protect my reputation), but the current design is working well. It's an 8" fan mounted near the ceiling, on the bulkhead wall between the kitchen counter and the bed (see the picture). The fan is USB powered from the outlet next to the bed, very quiet, with 10 speeds, and pointed down and towards the center of the floor area. When I get to the camper to work on it in the storage area, it's been as low as 8 deg. - the first step in heating it up is to turn on one or two of the stove burners for the first 5 or 10 minutes, with the fan on. Then I go back outside, and with my telescoping ladder, I go up to the roof area where the exhaust cap is located, and clear off one or two feet of snow (the chimney needs to have clear air flow in and out). Then I go back in and light the Dickenson (it's never failed to light on the first try - very easy), set it on High, and let it warm up. Then I turn off the stove burners. Within about 45 minutes, the cabin is over 50 degrees. It's slow to heat up because everything - the floor, walls, cabinets, etc. started at less than 10 degrees, and is being heated up along with the air. I turn down the Dickinson to Low after a couple hours, and the overall temperature is between 60 and 70 - the fan distributes the heat fairly well, front to back, but it takes time. I've been using the stove/furnace for many hours of camping and working at the storage area, and I'm still on the first tank of propane since picking up the camper from ETI last June - the second one is still full.
Regarding concerns about the heat effects on the countertop, cabinet, roof, etc. The heat isn't directed towards the countertop - it's drawn up thru the bottom of the heater. See the picture for the routing of the "chimney" - I've got ceramic tile covering the underside of the cabinet, and the hole thru the cabinet has over 1" clearance all around the chimney pipe. I've left the cabinet door off to provide circulation around the pipe - I don't think I'll put it back on since it seems unnecessary. I've felt the temperature of the tile, the cabinet bottom, and underside of the roof area after hours of operation - nothing is even as hot as a cup of coffee. The exhaust pipe does get hot - I would compare it to the hot water kettle on the stove - you wouldn't touch either one twice. I was concerned about the hole thru the roof, so I removed the exhaust fitting after many hours of operation for inspection, and there was no indication of any heat effects on the wood, foam insulation, or fiberglass.
Regarding the derating of the heater above 5000' elevation, this is standard for gas appliances. The BTU rating is valid below 5000', but the lower air pressure at higher altitudes results in less heat. If you take it up to really high elevations (like 20,000') the flame may be unstable and the heat produced wouldn't keep the thermocouple activated so the gas would shut off - I wouldn't want to test it above 10,000', but I don't think we'll do much camping up there.
I just looked at the new Dickinson model you provided the link to - the heater is now called a "furnace" and shows the addition of a guard around the exhaust pipe. It also says it has a pushbutton igniter - that would be handy. Otherwise it looks identical to my heater. I wouldn't want the guard pipe - now that it's been in operation the hot exhaust pipe doesn't concern me anymore, although I can see that a new buyer would be concerned. I actually want free air circulation around the exhaust pipe, since this helps to distribute the heat. It also appears that the guard pipe would be extra cost?? I'm sure they've gotten lots of questions from people like me about how hot everything gets, so the guard pipe addresses those concerns.
As expected, the heater has much lower heat output than the normal factory supplied Suburban or Dometic furnaces. The Dickinson is rated at 4500 BTUs, where the other two are around 15000 BTUs (I think - other owners could supply the factory specs), and have a more powerful fan to blow the heat into the cabin.
The older Atwood 8012-II and newer Atwood AFSAD12 and Dometic DFSAD furnaces used by Escape are 9,120 BTUH output. So you are a little less than half the heating output with the Dickinson on high.
Linear Mode
