Install of Dickinson heater - 2023 E19

[homebrewer]

Hard for me to believe I’m actually doing this - got the trailer mid-June, and now I’m doing a major mod, cutting into the wall, cabinet, and roof of my new trailer. We’ve been camping several times already, once at 9200 ft. when it was 33 deg f at night, and I could have used the heater - so I made the decision to order it now, so it would be ready for the fall.
The background story is that experience with other campers showed me that
1 - standard RV heaters (Dometic, Suburban) were somewhat noisy, intermittent on/off operation because of the thermostat, particularly at night, and had something called a sail switch which was problematic.
2 - The heater couldn’t be adjusted to run continuously at 25% for instance, even if you wanted to.
3 - When running, it uses lots of electricity and propane, although the intermittent operation may bring total energy usage down - hard to compare with the Dickinson.
4 - I looked at the diesel heater, but it was similar to a standard propane furnace, with the complication of diesel fuel.
So when I ordered the trailer, I asked ETI to delete the furnace, no kitchen window, and no hood vent above the stove. Additional benefits for the mod in my case are; a great location for kitchen drawers in the space opened up from the furnace, no hole in the side of the camper for the furnace exhaust or the hood vent. And since I got the compressor refrigerator, that’s 4 or 5 large and small holes in the shell eliminated (although I drilled a 3” hole in the roof).
I’m not done yet - but here’s pictures of the results (can’t get that one picture upright). I’ll provide pictures and info on the process in follow up posts. Let me know of any particular questions you have.
Jeff

[George Johnson]

I'm certainly impressed by both your ambition and skill. Congratulations! Will be interested to know how well the heat works its way down to floor level on chilly nights. Any possibility of using one of those convection operated fans to move the air around in the cabin without electricity?

[Mike G]

I will look forward to hearing how it performs. The question in my mind will be how well it keeps you at your desired temperature while not having an on-off thermostat (just low or high). It might roast you out on low. Or it might not.

In 35 degree weather, an early-model Pelonis electric heater keeps my 19' in the low 70s while idling at its lowest thermostat setting. It's a nice, even temp, but of course not much use for boondocking. The onboard furnace lets the temp vary quite noticeably between cycles and it's not as comfortable.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I will look forward to hearing how it performs. The question in my mind will be how well it keeps you at your desired temperature while not having an on-off thermostat (just low or high). It might roast you out on low. Or it might not.

We tried our Mr Buddy with 4,000 btu's on low and after a 1/2 hour it was just too hot in our 5.0 at 40F outside. We ended up using a Martin catalytic heater that could go down to 1,500 btu's.

Food for thought,

Perry

[Sean Murry]

I will be very interested to see how this works out for you. I like the idea of the Dickensen furnace as it adds a nice ambiance to the trailer. Like your own fireplace. I have seen them in the Scout truck campers, but that is a much smaller space. Would like to see how it keeps your toes warm. Nice installation!

[homebrewer]

I've also had two different Wave catalytic heaters - I liked the red glow at night, but sitting on the floor was a problem. However the bigger problem was the moisture it put out - metal trim was covered with frost, rubber or foam gaskets were frozen to the trim they sealed up against. Everybody has different preferences - I don't need the temperature within 2 or 3 degrees of 68 - if it dips below 55 at night, we've got blankets for that. Since we now have the compressor refrigerator, there's enough propane for weeks of camping. The Dickinson just had few of the drawbacks of other heat sources, and several benefits for me - we're looking forward to winter camping now.
Jeff

[homebrewer]

I knew where I wanted to put the furnace, so the routing of the exhaust, the 12 vdc, and propane supply sort of fell into place. Attached are a series of pictures showing the parts, then cutting of the insulation covering the fiberglass wall, and fastening the wood mounting strips with fiberglass mat and resin. I tested a piece of wood glued to a sample of fiberglass provided by ETI using the glass mat and resin - it worked so well that I could stand on the side of the wood - the wood broke before the fiberglass bond. I had to remove the insulation to do the fiberglass, but it was replaced afterwards. I was impressed by the 1" fabric covered foam wall covering - we had a Casita once with the carpet covered walls - this foam seems way better in terms of appearance and probably R value as well. The horizontal sticks in the picture hold the mounting sticks in place while the resin cures. Note that the wall insulation is only visible on one side of each mounting stick - I cut the sticks with a ledge on the outside to cover the somewhat jagged edge of the insulation cut. I was concerned about the difference between my trailer mounted Dickinson, and the "standard" boat mounted units - trailers bounce quite a bit more, so that has to be taken into account. The metal backing plate only had 4 holes to mount to the wood, so I drilled 4 extra holes. That heater is mounted solidly to the wood and the fiberglass wall! Later for the rest of the installation story.
Jeff

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by homebrewer

I knew where I wanted to put the furnace, so the routing of the exhaust, the 12 vdc, and propane supply sort of fell into place. Attached are a series of pictures showing the parts, then cutting of the insulation covering the fiberglass wall, and fastening the wood mounting strips with fiberglass mat and resin. I tested a piece of wood glued to a sample of fiberglass provided by ETI using the glass mat and resin - it worked so well that I could stand on the side of the wood - the wood broke before the fiberglass bond. I had to remove the insulation to do the fiberglass, but it was replaced afterwards. I was impressed by the 1" fabric covered foam wall covering - we had a Casita once with the carpet covered walls - this foam seems way better in terms of appearance and probably R value as well. The horizontal sticks in the picture hold the mounting sticks in place while the resin cures. Note that the wall insulation is only visible on one side of each mounting stick - I cut the sticks with a ledge on the outside to cover the somewhat jagged edge of the insulation cut. I was concerned about the difference between my trailer mounted Dickinson, and the "standard" boat mounted units - trailers bounce quite a bit more, so that has to be taken into account. The metal backing plate only had 4 holes to mount to the wood, so I drilled 4 extra holes. That heater is mounted solidly to the wood and the fiberglass wall! Later for the rest of the installation story.
Jeff

Nice work. I always like new, innovative solutions to a challenge. Keep us posted on how it performs. Dickinson calls for 20” clearance from the top of the heater. Do you plan to add something non-combustible on the underside of the cabinet?

[homebrewer]

Yes - the exhaust pipe has at least 1/2" clearance to the wood paneling around the hole in the bottom of the cabinet (pictures later), and my next step is to cut a 12"x12" ceramic tile to bolt to the underside of the cabinet, mounted on fiber washers to have it stand-off from the wood. Nothing will touch the exhaust pipe on its way to the cap on the roof, and air will circulate from around the pipe into the cabin area. I need to find a replacement cabinet door - It needs to be 8" to 10" longer so I can access the left and right ends of the cabinet, since the exhaust takes up about 5" in the middle, and the door needs to have something like a screen in the middle to allow air flow. I knew this was going to be complicated mod so I wanted to start long before the cold weather.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

We tried our Mr Buddy with 4,000 btu's on low and after a 1/2 hour it was just too hot in our 5.0 at 40F outside. We ended up using a Martin catalytic heater that could go down to 1,500 btu's.

Food for thought,

Perry

Good food is always welcome. I do have one of those, branded Coleman Black Cat, and at some point last spring it had crossed my mind (briefly) that I could route a hose from the outdoor quick-connect through the dinette window. Some ventilation is needed anyway, and most of the opening can be blocked with a strip of memory foam if it's letting in too much air.

[homebrewer]

My next step was the exhaust - it had to come out the top of the heater, thru the cabinet above, and thru the roof of the camper, but it couldn't go straight up. It had to reach the flat area on the roof, so the exhaust cap could sit flat. To get there it had to be directed away from the outside wall, and then miss the light on the underside of the cabinet. Some careful (and lucky - missed some wires by 1/8") cutting on the bottom of the cabinet, and a little bit of a guess on where to put the hole in the roof. Again got lucky - drilled up from inside the cabinet and it was in a good flat area. See the picture of the core cut out from the roof - the fiberglass there is thicker than the side walls, and it shows the plywood that is glued to the inside of the camper for attachment of cabinets and stuff - interesting. Note the Weather Cap that can be attached to the exhaust on the roof - this heater is designed for boats, but they don't go 70 mph thru rain and snow, so this cap can be put over the exhaust cap to prevent water getting into the heater thru the exhaust. I had to cut off 7" of the exhaust pipe that was supplied - not difficult, but follow the instructions from Dickinson.

[TTMartin]

While I understand this doesn't apply to your Dickson heater since its combustion is isolated to outside air. It does apply to your rangehood delete and to some of the comments.

I don't think people deleting their rangehood or using catalytic propane heaters understand how much moisture burning propane produces. Molded fiberglass trailers are impermeable and moisture management is imperative.

From: How much water does burning propane produce?

Moisture buildup can be a big problem in tiny spaces during the Winter. Without regular ventilation, water from cooking, showers, and breathing can build up and condense on cold walls and windows. In severe cases, moisture can create mold growth.

If you're using an un-vented or "vent-free" propane appliance like a catalytic heater, "blue flame" heater, or certain instant water heaters, your appliance is adding 1.6 pounds of moisture into your space for every pound of propane burned.

Why does burning propane produce so much water?

It doesn't seem possible, does it? How could one pound of propane contain more than one pound of water? Let's take a look at the chemistry.

C3H8 (propane) + 5O2 (oxygen) → 3CO2 (carbon dioxide) 4H2O (water)

For each molecule of propane burned on the left, 4 molecules of water are released on the right. The molar mass of propane is about 44 grams/mol. The molar mass of water is about 18 grams/mol. So:

44 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 4*18 g Water
44 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 72 g Water
1 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 1.64 g Water
So, where is all that extra weight coming from? In fact, very little of the weight of the water produced comes from the propane itself. By weight, water is mostly oxygen, and the oxygen comes from the air. If we add the molar mass of the remaining molecules, the equation balances nicely:

44 g Propane + 5 * 32 g Oxygen → 3 * 44 g Carbon Dioxide + 4 * 18 g Water
44 g Propane + 160 g Oxygen → 132 g Carbon Dioxide + 72 g Water
204 g Reactants → 204 g Products

Be careful using non-vented propane appliances in a tiny home
Even if the appliance isn't burning inefficiently and creating carbon monoxide or using up the oxygen in the room, it's dumping a ton of water in your living space.

To avoid moisture problems, either use vented appliances, or arrange for adequate ventilation to get rid of the moisture in your space.

[iamunique127]

The roof vent in stainless is super elegant looking.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

While I understand this doesn't apply to your Dickson heater since its combustion is isolated to outside air. It does apply to your rangehood delete and to some of the comments.

I don't think people deleting their rangehood or using catalytic propane heaters understand how much moisture burning propane produces. Molded fiberglass trailers are impermeable and moisture management is imperative.

Yet a lot of us do understand. It helps to grow up in fish house country where stupid people die every year.

We removed our stove hood and never missed it because we had the MaxxFan running 24/7/365. Hell, many people boil water without running the stove vent, MaxxFan or cracking a window, and yet wonder why they have moisture problems?

Over the years I've run into many campers using a Wave catalytic heater. Our 1,400 btu Martin catalytic heater has kept us warm many nights. You only need to crack one awning window about 1/4" and have the MaxxFan on low. I believe in science. We NEVER had our CO detector go off with the Martin, but have had it go off with the stovetop and our Mr Buddy (used to quickly warm up a 35 degree camper, and then shut off). We also have a second CO detector at head level in our bed and it has a digital display on the amount of CO present. Never had a reading with the Martin, but do when running 4' from the stovetop.

Food for thought,

Perry

[homebrewer]

Thanks for the details - I knew the catalytic heaters put out lots of moisture from experience, but not how much. I deleted the hood vent and the kitchen window primarily to save room for the Dickinson, but also because the vent was a head knocker, in the way of your vision if you’re taller, takes up wall space for dish and utensil racks like I’ve seen on this forum, and finally, we have a ceiling vent and ceiling fan that provides the exhaust function. So I’ve traded a view out the window for a view of the Dickinson.
Some people (like the younger me) justify the catalytic heater because “it’s so efficient - no heat loss up the chimney”, but I don’t think any trailer maker puts in catalytic heaters.
Jeff

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by homebrewer

Some people (like the younger me) justify the catalytic heater because “it’s so efficient - no heat loss up the chimney”, but I don’t think any trailer maker puts in catalytic heaters.
Jeff

News Break: Efficiency is THE reason you can properly and safely use a catalytic heater in a trailer! Of course, it helps to understand the science involved.

And yet, how many RV companies are installing Dickinson heaters in their trailers?

Last I knew, Camping World would install a Wave heater in your trailer. They were still on the shelf at the Camping World in Monticello, MN when we were there three weeks ago.

Food for thought,

Perry

[homebrewer]

So the Dickinson was mounted on the wall, and the chimney was up thru the cabinet and the roof. I provided both the propane 12 vdc from the stove. Both were more problematic than anticipated. The wires from the fan in the Dickinson are very thin - designed to be in a computer; maybe 22 ga. or smaller. First try was with crimp connectors - they were too big and the wires just pulled out. Next were the twist-on wire nuts - also too big. Finally I had to solder and tape the connection. Then the propane was provided by a short section of 3/8" copper tube with flare connectors. Flared connections seem to be standard in many tubing systems including propane, but the tubing has to be carefully flared. The flexible hose going to the stove is a flared connection, so I replaced the fitting at the stove with a flared tee, and bent a short section of 3/8" tubing - three 90 degree bends. I had a propane leak on one or both of the flares that I made at first. I had to get very careful with the flare tool, and inspect the flared surface to make sure there was 100% contact inside the fitting - then it sealed. It passed the sniff test, and then the match test.
It wasn't completely finished, but I couldn't wait - I had to turn it on, even though it was 85 degrees and sunny. It was a big ho-hum. It worked. Smoke even came out the chimney, from the residual oil film in parts of the heater and metal exhaust pipe. but that went away after a few minutes. The flame is pure blue at first, then after several minutes adds some yellow, and then a panel in the back of the firebox begins to glow red and provides more radiant heat out the glass window, which all adds to a pleasant visual effect.
Then I had to add some ceramic tile to the underside of the cabinet with fiber gromets for 1/4" stand-off, because it didn't meet the required 20" clearance above the heater per the Dickinson manual. This also turned out to be difficult. The tile had to be shaped to go around both the exhaust pipe, and the light on the underside of the cabinet, then held in place while inserting the screws with the gromets and reaching into the cabinet to put on small washers and nuts. A real test of finger dexterity. I know - I'm to blame for it all, but I'm not doing this again. I put the heater thru longer tests one evening when it was cooler (in the 70s, with door and windows open). It seems to put out lots of heat (no surprise) and the view of the window in the dark is very nice - the fan is very quiet - maybe about the same as the compressor refrigerator. There doesn't seem to be much heat rising up and heating the underside of the cabinet, but I'll have to check it some cold night for several hours. The bare exhaust pipe gets hot enough to be very uncomfortable to touch, but it didn't seem to be a danger for skin burns - again I'll have to check it some cold night.
I have to show the use of the cabinet where the normally installed furnace is located - I put in three drawers that are super handy in the kitchen area. They have "keepers' that prevent sliding out while towing. I don't like the standard drawer slides with the "keepers" that are hard to open and close. Plus the slides I use are only $8 a set and easy to mount. The Dickinson is ready for winter use, but I'm going to do more work in the cabinet to put barriers on the sides of the exhaust, so stuff stored up there doesn't touch it. I also want to get a longer cabinet door, maybe 34". The 24" door was too short even before the exhaust was installed.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

We NEVER had our CO detector go off with the Martin, but have had it go off with the stovetop and our Mr Buddy (used to quickly warm up a 35 degree camper, and then shut off). We also have a second CO detector at head level in our bed and it has a digital display on the amount of CO present. Never had a reading with the Martin, but do when running 4' from the stovetop.

Catalytic propane heaters won't produce any CO until they have used up almost all of the oxygen. CO Detectors give a false sense of security, because you will be suffering from the effects of hypoxia long before the CO Detector would alarm. There is a documented case of people in fishing huts sitting there laughing and joking totally ignoring the CO alarm blaring, because the hypoxia had impaired their judgement. The only reason they weren't listed as another CO death, is because a neighboring fishing hut came over to investigate why the CO Detector was going off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3W4d-5RPo

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) analyzed the emissions from two commercial catalytic heaters in 2003. They found that while the amount of carbon monoxide released was small, the heaters' consumption of oxygen could potentially cause hypoxia.

Food for thought

BTW, I'm a certified Fire Safety Inspector in the State of Ohio.

[brroberts]

“I had a propane leak on one or both of the flares that I made at first. I had to get very careful with the flare tool, and inspect the flared surface to make sure there was 100% contact inside the fitting - then it sealed. It passed the sniff test, and then the match test.”


That’s a scary way to test for propane leaks. Typically we use soapy water, not flames due to the danger risk.

[Viajante]

Homebrewer, that was a gutsy project. Congratulations on being innovative. And thanks for the documentation.