What do you think of lithium batteries without solar on the roof?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by gklott

CSA Z240.6.2-14 (2020)/C22.2 §5.23.1, "Ventilation of battery compartments", requires ventilation of all battery compartments.

Makes sense I guess because they have no idea what a future owner is going to install. Venting covers all bases. One thing for owners with lithium batteries inside to consider is the infiltration of cold air into the battery box. Even if you keep your trailer heated if you don't block up the vent a tightly sealed battery box is essentially going to equalize with the outside. If we move to lithium I will most likely be blocking up my vent.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

One thing for owners with lithium batteries inside to consider is the infiltration of cold air into the battery box. Even if you keep your trailer heated if you don't block up the vent a tightly sealed battery box is essentially going to equalize with the outside. If we move to lithium I will most likely be blocking up my vent.

I would consider a pressure-relief vent, as used in electric vehicle battery cases, rather than a complete block. Tesla apparently uses a custom variant of AGM's Breather Valve TA292-R.

[JulietF]

Originally Posted by Centex

Just for your consideration ....

Deleted the battery vent portion of quote.

Re: Compressor fridge / sidewall and roof vent - FWIW in my dialogue with ETI explicit to this point, I have been told by my ETI salesperson within the last month, that ETI is installing the same fridge sidewall and roof vents for both 3-way and 12VDC compressor refrigerators. They have determined (correctly, IMO) that both types of refrigerators they offer require both a lower and upper vent to dump the heat transferred by both types of refrigerators.

While NovaKool does offer a few models of compressor refrigerators that use a front-mounted lower vent (obviating the need for an exterior lower-sidewall vent), to date ETI has not agreed to offer those models as a standing option for their installation. And even that arrangement requires an upper (roof) vent per NovaKool installation guidance.

Bottom line, all refrigerators, regardless of energy source, work on the principle of transferring heat from the inside of the box to the outside of the box. The heat transferred outside of the refrigerator box (via condenser coils) must be vented somewhere away from the condenser coils to allow that heat transfer to be effective.

YMMV insofar as ETI options and customization at any instant in time, I urge you assume nothing and verify everything relating to your expectations through email dialogue with your assigned ETI sales / trailer configuration representative.

According to their Q and A on January 22, 2021 it seems ETI has changed their minds about the compressor refrigerator vents because they now have stated that you have the option as to whether to have vents or no vents.

We ordered our trailer in August 2020. When i got the compressor fridge option at a cost of +$1200 I was told, when I asked about the vents that they wouldn't be installed. When I saw the vents in the build picture in late November, I was gutted.

From the information I got in November and last week after seeing the video, that there has been a lot of confusion and chaos over the last few months regarding this. I have been told that their written policy at the time I ordered our trailer was that they would not put in vents and that it wasnt necessary to list that on the build sheet....and that the confusion was on the manufacturing side.

One thing I know for sure after reading the specs for the fridge is that exterior vents are not necessary as is the case in your house or on a boat. I have done my best to seal up the vent cavities because it blows out extremely cold air into the trailer interior, but I am still not happy and am looking at options to fix what I consider to be a problem......two big unnecessary holes in the trailer.

Juliet

[Centex]

Originally Posted by JulietF

....
One thing I know for sure after reading the specs for the fridge is that exterior vents are not necessary as is the case in your house or on a boat.

No idea what fridge you have, attached FYI are two documents from Nova Kool which go to the issue of ventilation requirements. These were the basis of my comments regarding ventilation, offered just for your and other readers' consideration.

"1. Ventilation:
Ventilation should be one of your first major installation considerations. All refrigerators, regardless of make, are heat transfer machines which transfer heat from the inside of the box thru the evaporator, compressor and refrigerant to the condenser on the outside of the box, to be dissipated to the air. The cavity where the condenser is located MUST be adequately ventilated.

Single door units
Require 30 sq.in. INLET and 30 sq.in. OUTLET
Double door units
Require 60 sq.in. INLET and 60 sq.in. OUTLET
(With the exception of the RFU9000, and the RFU8220 which has all of the required ventilation built into the front of the flange)

The INLET should be below the level of the condenser and the OUTLET should be above. This type of ventilation is ideal and will allow natural convection to take place, drawing cool air in low through the INLET, drawing off the heat from the condenser, and allowing the hot air to escape thru the OUTLET. This is how a chimney on a fireplace works.

When using grilles or registers please consider the “free” area as some grilles can be quite large and still be very restrictive. For those inevitable applications that are “hard” to ventilate completely, provisions have been made on the electronic module to accept an auxiliary fan. Please note adequate ventilation is the responsibility of the installer/customer."

[JeffreyG]

From curiosity, what refrigerators does ETI install for a compressor option?



The Escape options on the website lists a "5.5 cu ft. compressor fridge". There is no such unit from Nova Kool. Anyone know what manufacturer and unit this would be?

[JulietF]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

From curiosity, what refrigerators does ETI install for a compressor option?



The Escape options on the website lists a "5.5 cu ft. compressor fridge". There is no such unit from Nova Kool. Anyone know what manufacturer and unit this would be?

Our trailer was completed in late November 2020 and we had a Norcold DC 558 installed. We love the fridge. While the freezer portion of it is considered by some to be an icebox, it was able to freeze a package of chicken with no issues. As for the power it used......the heater used far more power than the compressor fridge.

It is a DC fridge only, but I don't see this as an issue. That said, I have installed 3 lithium 100Ah batteries and am changing out the solar controller to an MPPT one.

Julie

[Sean Murry]

When we ordered our Escape we deleted the fridge as we installed a NovaKool when we brought the trailer home. We got the front venting NovaKool so we had the side vent of the trailer eliminated, but we did keep the roof vent for hot air.

[Mike Lewis]

How many amps does a compressor fridge draw? I presume the power load is intermittent as the fridge cycles on/off.

[JulietF]

Obviously the power that is used by the compressor fridge is dependant on several factors, most notably size and ambient temperature. When I did my calculations for battery usage prior to picking up the trailer, I used 45 amps for the Norcold 5.5 compressor fridge. After being out for a month I think that number is on the conservative side. In comparison, the furnace might have used as much as 2x the amount of power with lows in temperature down to an average of about +2 at night.

[Sean Murry]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

How many amps does a compressor fridge draw? I presume the power load is intermittent as the fridge cycles on/off.

If you go to the Novakool website. www.novakool.com they have a lot of good information on amperage draws. Depending on the size of fridge you choose it varies between 2.4 to 5.2 amps, This would be the draw when it is running. How often it cycles on and off depends on ambient temperature, how often you are opening the fridge etc. In my experience it runs roughly 30 -50% of the time

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

How many amps does a compressor fridge draw?

Not only dependent on variables like ambient temperature, your choice of thermostat set-temperature, use-habits, the efficiency of condenser venting / heat exchange, etc, the answer is also very dependent on the specific make and model in question.

Danfoss, for example, provides several basic models of sealed compressor units used by several refrigerator manufacturers ("BD-35", for example). BUT, as supplied by Danfoss each model is designed to be 'tailored to the application' by the refrigerator manufacturer (making settings relating to the compressor RPM in the Donfoss controller firmware, for example, for different reefer models/sizes/shapes). As a result you may (will) encounter several reefers from a given manufacturer stating they all use a "Danfoss BD-35 compressor" but listing different 'run-time amps'.

We can only hope that refrigerator manufacturer claims of 'run-time amps' are reasonably accurate, use that as a relative measure of power-consumption when shopping different models, and make you own best guess about the rest (IMO).

Using manufacturer 'run-time amps' data you can play with different 'run-time/day' numbers to at least guesstimate a range of 'daily amp-hours' and see how 'sensitive' the sizing of battery storage and solar charging systems might be.

[Bear101]

Hello Centex
We have an Escape 19 and have installed 3 100ampH Battleborn batteries and changed out the charge controller. We have only one solar panel and do not find that it helps significantly in charging the batteries, we charge them from shore power and they last us a week in the summer. We have a 3-way fridge which we run off propane when we are boondocking and we only use DC when we are boondocking. In this scenario, the key is charging the batteries. For your 5.0 TA you will have a truck and could charge the batteries via a Dc to Dc charger while traveling between sites or included multiple solar panels or both. In our experience having too many options is not a concern getting a charge wherever you can when boondocking is key, so for me the more options the better. We are thinking about the new ford F150 hybrid with its charging capabilities but that is a seperate discussion

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Bear101

.... We have a 3-way fridge which we run off propane when we are boondocking and we only use DC when we are boondocking.

That's a tad confusing ... did you mean to say "we run off propane when boondocking and we only use DC when we are 'underway on the road'?

The point of your post seems to be that you favor a reefer that will run on LP when camped off-grid / boondocking? If so I heartily agree based on my experience. Yes, I like having all of the 3-way options:

• LP when camping off-grid / boondocking
• 120VAC when shore power is available
• 12VDC when actually underway connected to the tow-vehicle (though some prefer LP operation when towing, too; I don't, but that's a personal choice IMO)

[Bear101]

Originally Posted by Centex

That's a tad confusing ... did you mean to say "we run off propane when boondocking and we only use DC when we are 'underway on the road'?

Sorry for fusing two thoughts in one sentence. We use propane for the fridge while boondocking. Separately we do not have a Dc to Ac inverter so all other functions in the trailer are run off of DC while boondocking. While traveling we put ice packs in the fridge and freezer and this maintains the temperature sufficiently.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

QAI is the service which Escape uses to certify their products as meeting the requirements of applicable standards, from CSA and perhaps from RVIA. Without looking them up, it is reasonable to assume that these standards are written assuming flooded lead-acid batteries and will require significant venting.

Brian - As you had so astutely anticipated, the reason why ETI is needing to pull back on offering more than 2 Lithium battery orders is precisely because the code for Canada has been written to require significant venting and has not been revised to reflect a low/no venting needs for Lithium.

Here is what I heard from ETI -

Concerning the Lithium venting regulations and the recent updates, there is also a lot going on behind the scenes with our regulator. Because of where we’re located in Canada, we are not regulated by RVIA – we must uphold the Canadian CSA Z240 regulations. I did lobby our regulator for an exception for Lithium venting, but was denied since the underlying electrical code (ANSI LV 2020) was not actually updated to allow unvented Lithium, RVIA only changed their position via a news bulletin. Until the actual codebooks catch up with the latest industry position we are stuck requiring vented enclosures.

I did wonder how difficult it will be add one or two additional 100 Ah lithium batteries to the setup post- delivery, since the constraint seems to be an outdated code...

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by kavm

Brian - As you had so astutely anticipated, the reason why ETI is needing to pull back on offering more than 2 Lithium battery orders is precisely because the code for Canada has been written to require significant venting and has not been revised to reflect a low/no venting needs for Lithium.

Here is what I heard from ETI -

Concerning the Lithium venting regulations and the recent updates, there is also a lot going on behind the scenes with our regulator. Because of where we’re located in Canada, we are not regulated by RVIA – we must uphold the Canadian CSA Z240 regulations. I did lobby our regulator for an exception for Lithium venting, but was denied since the underlying electrical code (ANSI LV 2020) was not actually updated to allow unvented Lithium, RVIA only changed their position via a news bulletin. Until the actual codebooks catch up with the latest industry position we are stuck requiring vented enclosures.

I did wonder how difficult it will be add one or two additional 100 Ah lithium batteries to the setup post- delivery, since the constraint seems to be an outdated code...

If this is the case I wonder If they will be a offering Lithium installed inside on The 19,17, and 21NE. They would have to come up with vented box set up for these trailers. I guess that could use the same box as the 21c and 5.0 . Not sure where they put them in the 17'. The 19 they said the batteries had to be moved to the front as the Tongue weight was to low other wise. The reverse situation on the 17 . I just wonder if they have tested tongue weight with the lithium.

[Sean Murry]

Too bad the regulations are behind. The lithium Iron Phosphate batteries do not need venting. Some manufacturers are installing them inside their RV's with no ventilation at all. They can be installed sideways, upside down or anyway you want to make them fit.
I personally put the 4x100 Battle Borns we have in the front storage box. The weight of 4 lithiums is roughly the same weight as 2x6V lead batteries.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

If this is the case I wonder If they will be a offering Lithium installed inside on The 19,17, and 21NE.

Unless they change the battery location for temperature control, I don't know why they would move. Only the 21 and 5.0(TA) have the batteries inside.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Unless they change the battery location for temperature control, I don't know why they would move. Only the 21 and 5.0(TA) have the batteries inside.

The way I understand it they have been offering the Lithium installed inside at least on the 19 and 21 NE. maybe someone with a current Trailer on order could confirm this ? This Is what got me thinking maybe they would change this if the vent became a issue.

[Doug2000]

What do you think of Lithium Batteries?

A while ago I asked 3 of the Engineers at work why they are afraid of Lithium and are hesitant to use them in the product we build, a mobile vehicle. I mentioned many motorhome owners are starting to use them. They're response was what is their plan when they reach 2000 degrees. We have all seen videos of iPhones catching fire.

We have since started using Lithium but they are mounted in heavy steel boxes.