What do you think of lithium batteries without solar on the roof?

[dstreight]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

What do you think of Lithium Batteries?

A while ago I asked 3 of the Engineers at work why they are afraid of Lithium and are hesitant to use them in the product we build, a mobile vehicle. I mentioned many motorhome owners are starting to use them. They're response was what is their plan when they reach 2000 degrees. We have all seen videos of iPhones catching fire.

We have since started using Lithium but they are mounted in heavy steel boxes.

A good place to start: https://medium.com/@mikelam9676/caus...y-547e58e8cc69

https://blog.epectec.com/lithium-iro...and-advantages

[gklott]

Originally Posted by kavm

Concerning the Lithium venting regulations and the recent updates, there is also a lot going on behind the scenes with our regulator. Because of where we’re located in Canada, we are not regulated by RVIA – we must uphold the Canadian CSA Z240 regulations. I did lobby our regulator for an exception for Lithium venting, but was denied since the underlying electrical code (ANSI LV 2020) was not actually updated to allow unvented Lithium, RVIA only changed their position via a news bulletin. Until the actual codebooks catch up with the latest industry position we are stuck requiring vented enclosures.

From RVIA Oct 21, 2020:
"....To be included in RV products, lithium batteries must be listed by a third-party listing agency recognized by the RV Industry Association. The listing agency gives their independent stamp of approval which addresses thermal run-away, having a management or protection system to provide safety in situations of high/low voltages and temperatures, limiting high current output, and cell balancing.
...the RV Industry Association Board of Directors approved a recommendation from the Standards Steering Committee permitting non-vented (lithium) batteries to be located inside the living space of the RV, without venting. Manufacturers who install lithium batteries will need to have multiple warning labels that educate consumers “to not replace a non-vented battery with a vented battery.” These warning labels will need to be affixed on the battery, on the RV adjacent to the non-vented battery’s location, on the inside and outside of a case or compartment, if provided, and included via a statement in the RV owner’s manual."

From ANSI/RVIA LV 2020, §2-3:
"...Battery compartments designed for vented batteries may be used with vented or non-vented batteries (including lithium) if the compartment is located where it will not impede the safe exit from the vehicle should a failure occur in the non-vented battery."
..."If provided, battery compartments designed for non-vented batteries only (including lithium) shall be designed such that the mount or compartment shall be incapable of accepting a vented battery, or the system shall be designed electrically to prevent the operation of a vented battery. Non-vented battery installations shall contain a safety protection system."

Battle Born lithium batteries are UL 2054 listed, "UL Standard for Safety Household and Commercial Batteries". Hopefully, Battle Born will also get their batteries certified under the Dec 29, 2020, UL Standard 1642, "Lithium Batteries". The safest lithium RV batteries are likely the Lithionics products. Look for UL 1642 certification before you buy.

73/gus

[Sean Murry]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

What do you think of Lithium Batteries?

A while ago I asked 3 of the Engineers at work why they are afraid of Lithium and are hesitant to use them in the product we build, a mobile vehicle. I mentioned many motorhome owners are starting to use them. They're response was what is their plan when they reach 2000 degrees. We have all seen videos of iPhones catching fire.

We have since started using Lithium but they are mounted in heavy steel boxes.

There are at least 5 different chemistries for Lithium Batteries. The one most commonly used in phones, laptops etc is the Lithium Cobalt Oxide, They can have heat issues.
Lithium Manganese Oxide is often used in power tools and hybrid and electric cars
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide is also used in tools and e bikes
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide is most common in EV Powertrains
Lithium Iron Phosphate is what is commonly used in RV's

Lithium Iron Phosphate does not have the heat, flammable issues that the other chemistries have

[scottarue]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

I would considering having the solar pre wire option. That way you could add panels latter that did not requiring more holes. Yes the pre wire port would be one more hole. You will already have at least 50 holes in the shell so one more would not be a deal breaker. I was assuming when escape started offering lithium they would offer a different converter charger. It this not the case?

I am thinking about buying an Escape but didn't know there were so many holes in the shell. You said there are 50 - can you say where they are - and have you or anyone else had a problem with leakage?

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by scottarue

I am thinking about buying an Escape but didn't know there were so many holes in the shell. You said there are 50 - can you say where they are - and have you or anyone else had a problem with leakage?

I counted all the rivets once, but I forget how many. The vents and exhausts, water inlet, power inlet, are all fastened to the shell with rivets. Windows also need holes. I've had my 17B for 12 years and have had no leaks.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by scottarue

I am thinking about buying an Escape but didn't know there were so many holes in the shell. You said there are 50 - can you say where they are - and have you or anyone else had a problem with leakage?

Moulded fiberglass travel trailers typically have all the same openings through the walls roof and floor as travel trailers of other construction types - the difference is just the seams joining the wall and roof components. Even then, the moulded fiberglass trailers typically have a seam all the way around, since the shell is moulded in two parts; Escape does this better than most, bonding the two parts together with fiberglass while the parts are still in their moulds to hold them precisely aligned.

Openings (in any brand) are for the

• door,
• windows,
• cargo compartment access,
• roof hatches for ventilation,
• roof escape hatch (among Escapes the 5.0 only, because of the sleeping loft),
• plumbing vents,
• refrigerator intake (in wall) and exhaust (in roof) vents,
• access to water heater and (in many cases) furnace
• access to propane tank (in fifth-wheel models),
• vehicle lighting (marker, tail, stop/turn, and clearance lights) and wiring,
• convenience lighting ("patio" and work lights),
• access to fifth-wheel landing gear and controls,
• propane to appliances,
• power from the tow vehicle,
• power from the campsite,
• water to and from the fresh water tank and from the campsite supply,
• waste,
• wiring to external components such as solar panels and antennas,
• mounting of external components such as awnings and antennas,
• etc

[Eggscape]

And apparently drain holes in the bottom that I keep forgetting to look for.

[Vermilye]

I've been comfortable winter camping in Arizona with a pair of Battleborn lithium batteries. 2 -160 watt panels on the roof & a 160 watt portable. The rooftop panels can (and were) tilted to the proper angle for Quartzsite January sun. I did switch to an Victron MPPT solar controller & a Progressive Dynamics replacement converter. I went 76 nights in a row without hookups.

I thought I had a winter storage problem since I didn't go to Arizona for the winter but stayed in Upstate NY, but after discussion with Battleborn, determined that I still had enough load on the batteries with the battery disconnect switch open to slowly drain them. The small loads were my fault, not Escapes.

[algonquin50]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Lithium batteries are very expensive.

Running a compressor fridge full time on batteries, I suspect you'll need to run that generator several hours every day to keep things charged, and yes you will need a DC converter that has the proper charge cycle mode for Lithium.

I have 2 agm 90 amp batteries.....$500 for good quality batteries and I usually get 4 or 5 years use
I also have 2 100w outboard panels. (Not on roof)
I love lithium but can't justify the cost.
I could probably get by with a single 100w....but I've never needed more than the 200w...even running three fans...computer, etc.
Remember that panel wattage is maximum....so consider cloudy, rainy days......for flat mounted
Non directional panels...studies have shown a reduction of 30% compared to outboard panels that you can set angle and aim toward sun.
Just my .02 worth of using solar for 20 years.

[Sean Murry]

I agree about the portable panels. I have the 190Watt rooftop solar, but depending on where you are camping it is not ideal for getting the most out of the sun. I recently bought 2x100W portable panels I will run in parallel. That way I can follow the sun. With 190W on top and 200W as portable, that should give me a fair bit of power. Haven't tried it out yet but hope to in the next coupe of months.

[1200bruce]

At this time I think we're going to go with the two Go Power lithium batteries the two panels on the roof, 190 each, and a 120 watt suitcase if needed.
No inverter and still go with the 12 volt compressor fridge.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by dstreight

I just use the Victron Smart Battery Sense (Bluetooth) to control the low temperature solar charge cut off. Works perfectly.

would you mind sharing how you worked this? i have been trying to use a bmv712 to operate a 12V contactor on my home solar system to serve as a low voltage cutoff and i can't get it to activate. it's the same idea as what you're doing and i am trying to find out what sort of relay you're using the bmv712 to cutoff?

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I've been comfortable winter camping in Arizona with a pair of Battleborn lithium batteries. 2 -160 watt panels on the roof & a 160 watt portable. The rooftop panels can (and were) tilted to the proper angle for Quartzsite January sun. I did switch to an Victron MPPT solar controller & a Progressive Dynamics replacement converter. I went 76 nights in a row without hookups.

I thought I had a winter storage problem since I didn't go to Arizona for the winter but stayed in Upstate NY, but after discussion with Battleborn, determined that I still had enough load on the batteries with the battery disconnect switch open to slowly drain them. The small loads were my fault, not Escapes.

this sounds like a really nice setup. FWIW, i designed/built a solar system for our house in 2014 and we've been off grid ever since. I have 10 fixed and two panels on a pole that i can rotate to optimal angle. the thing that has surprised me is how insensitive they are to angle so long as they're within about 30 degrees or so of perpendicular to the sun.

FOr camping, I have transitioned from using a movable, ground panel to having it mounted on the trailer. I just love having one less thing to worry about at camp. It's true there are times i would get more solar by being able to move the panel, but the tradeoff is worth it to me not to have to deal with it, lift it in and out of truck, etc. Plus, my portable panel was 100W and the mounted one is 170W and that seems to have made up for the occasional non optimal position.

[dstreight]

Originally Posted by Semievolved

would you mind sharing how you worked this? i have been trying to use a bmv712 to operate a 12V contactor on my home solar system to serve as a low voltage cutoff and i can't get it to activate. it's the same idea as what you're doing and i am trying to find out what sort of relay you're using the bmv712 to cutoff?

My VE Smart Battery Sense is connected to the battery directly and talks to the BT dongle on my BlueSolar MPPT controllers; turn on low temp cut off within the BlueSolar/SmartSolar app. No relays involved (12v LiFePO4 bank).

Or maybe this will help with your situation: https://community.victronenergy.com/...rt-sensor.html