Ethics and Electricity

[Vermilye]

I suspect that before too long if electric vehicles become the norm campgrounds will have far more problems than worrying about the cost of the electricity. The demand factor tables (NEC 551.73) used for most current RV parks has a demand factor ranging from 100% for one site to 41% for 36+ sites. Even a 10 site park only required supplying 50% of the calculated demand.

At 41% we are already having problems with the increased use of air conditioners, electric heaters, and other high demand loads - adding an electric vehicle at each site is going to require rewiring the entire park.

While current NEC code has increased the demand factor, there are plenty of parks built under the older demand factors.

[Randy in Maine]

Originally Posted by hugh

That would be nice. In central Virginia, a lot of the power comes from this massive coal plant: https://www.gem.wiki/Chesterfield_power_station

That 446 MW plant no longer uses coal and is now fired using natural gas (according to the website).

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by J1973s

Every gallon of gasoline burned creates 8887 gr of CO2. 454gr/pound, so actually a bit less than 20#(19.58). BTW, a gallon of gasoline weighs about eight pounds (a pint is a pound the world around).
The Carbon (C) combines with Oxygen (O2) from the atmosphere to create the CO2.

No, gasoline is closer to 6 lbs (unless you're talking about Imperial gallons?). Look it up.

Okay, so the key here (since atmospheric gases are essentially weightless) is that the 'almost 20 lbs' is a measurement of CO2's mass, not weight. Got it. (Technically, 'pounds' is not a proper unit of mass, but laypeople sometimes use it that way anyhow.)

[Radar1]

I suspect campgrounds will eventually raise their rates, or have a higher fee for electric sites. I believe FL state parks started adding on a utility fee for sites using electric last year.

For now, most EVs are mostly towing smaller campers with just one A/C if that. Big rigs are already using as much for their two or three A/Cs as some of the EV and small camper combinations and we all pay for that in the end.
It will be interesting to see how campgrounds cope, especially if the existing wiring infrastructure can handle the extra usage.

[Bobbie54]

Do you get a discount when you are powering a lot of your trailer with solar and not using much from the power post? Nope. (Unless you book a non-utility site.) I had friends who used to book a power site so they could keep their gaming stuff charged (in their tent). They just bought an EV so now they'll even things out.

But I have heard of campgrounds that charge if you want to plug in an EV or just don't allow it. I've also been places where you can't use AC even though you can plug in- AC has to be run off a generator (usually dog shows with minimal hookups.)

I suspect some kind of standard will come out of this and either the cost will just go up, period, or there will be surcharge for plugging in an EV. Though why should they pay more than the couple who are staying inside all week, watching television and running the AC and however else you can use up electric fast?

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Radar1

I suspect campgrounds will eventually raise their rates, or have a higher fee for electric sites. I believe FL state parks started adding on a utility fee for sites using electric last year.

Yes, Florida instituted a utility fee (presumably electricity and water) in the State Parks. Still, it is grossly unfair. Tenters are exempt, but at Scamp Camp walking around Highlands Hammock in February every tenter had a heavy electric cord going into the tent (electric heaters?) and some had electric griddles on the picnic tables. The 30 amp trailers and 50 amp trailers pay $7 per night in addition to the campsite fee. We all know that the 50 amp rigs have 2 or 3 air conditioners and some have washers and dryers. Those of us in 30 amp units have 1 air conditioner and have to feed quarters, an additional expense that many 50 amp campers bypass into laundry machines if we want to wash clothing. So the ultimate result is that the “middle class” (30 amp people) are subsidizing the “low class” (tenters) and the “upper class” (big 50 amp behemoths).
If one assumes the average month is 30 days, 30 times $7 is $210. The average electric bill for my 2,000 + square foot home is less than that. The Florida DNR could have instituted a more realistic fee, let’s say $3 for tents, $5 for 30 amp units, and $10 for 50 amp units but they chose the path of least resistance, as they likely expected complaints from the motor home and huge 5th wheel owners having to pay a more realistic share.
I am not complaining because Scamp Camp is the only time I RV in my home State of Florida, but I believe those of us “dressed in fiberglass” are paying more than our fair share, especially those who utilize the Florida State Parks more than me. I will add that since they are more than recouping the power bill, it would be nice if they put some off the fees back into repairing infrastructure. Last February, the same fixtures in the men’s bath houses that were out of order 4 years ago were still out of order. Go figure…….

[Downsized]

Our tow vehicle is electric. We charge at campgrounds all the time. We generally ask and have never had a problem. Many will ask that you only plug one thing in at a time which is fine with us. Some campgrounds charge a fee but the only time we have run across that is on a 50 amp site which we generally don’t rent because we have a 30 amp trailer.

Our charge cord knows it’s plugged into a TT30 and limits charge current to 24 amps. If the voltage drops below 112 volts it cuts the charge current to 12 amps.

This is us plugged in to a 30 amp site. We have toured all over Canada and extensively in BC and never had an issue. Generally camp ground operators are very helpful. We always report on the EV towing forums about the charging experiences. It’s all good publicity for the campground. EV RV camping is definitely increasing rapidly compared to last year. Especially with the Rivian and Ford Lightning crowd.

Campgrounds need to find a way to work with the changing technology as more and more people will be towing with electric and driving electric class B and small motorhomes. The number one car sold in the world now is not gas, it’s electric, (tesla model Y) and lots of people are towing with it.

Cheers.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Mike G

No, gasoline is closer to 6 lbs (unless you're talking about Imperial gallons?). Look it up.

One gallon of gasoline masses about 6.1 lbs-mass. Lets call it 2.75kg mass so we are not using archaic units.

Okay, so the key here (since atmospheric gases are essentially weightless) is that the 'almost 20 lbs' is a measurement of CO2's mass, not weight. Got it.

Let's just stay away from the idea of weight, because that makes little sense in terms of both what is being described, and how we measure gasses on the planet, in an atmosphere.

So.....working through the chemical composition of gasoline (roughly C8H18) and stoichiometry........Combustion of a gallon (2.75 kg) of gasoline in air creates 8.8kg of CO2.

Back to the original exposition, the reason 2.75kg of gasoline, when burned, yields some 3.2 times as much mass of CO2, is because the gasoline is only supplying one Carbon atom to match with the two Oxygen atoms coming from the air. So more mass in the CO2 comes from the air side of the combustion than comes from the fuel side.

[GregWCIL]

Road taxes will be a big issue. Depending which side of the fence you are on, so to speak. Here in Illinois if I buy an EV (which I’m considering) I would pay a higher annual license fee but I don’t think it covers lost fuel taxes. But up front, Illinois is paying a fairly hefty tax rebate to EV buyers. Long run something has to give.
In any case I won’t be buying an EV until I get my 10 kw solar panel system installed.

[NoSOD]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Things will change with campgrounds and fees charged as the cost of more
electrical usage power is seen. I have already seen RV campgrounds that meter the usage of 50A outlets due to the potential high draw of 2 or 3 A/C units and numerous other electrical appliances.

To raise the rates of camping to cover additional costs of electrical usage is kinda unfair to folks like us that really use next to nothing. Maybe A/C if it is really hot.

There already is lots of discussion, around here at least, with how to add tax to electrical vehicles for road usage. Currently the HUGE tax added to fuel at the pump here in Canada includes a large amount for road building and repair. This tax, though ridiculously high, is fair to the degree that the more you use a vehicle, the more you pay towards road work. Not sure how they will judge road usage with electrical vehicle taxing.

Time will tell, this age of EVs is still very much in it's infancy.

I have wondered about the tax issue also. This far from an uncomplicated issue. I read recently that EV's wear out tires earlier than a gas vehicle, and also wear out the road earlier, due to increased weight, and torque that presumably spins those tires more often. So there's the carbon impact of all those new tires and road works to consider. On my last trip it took me about 30 seconds to drive past a single blade from one of those wind turbines. They are huge, and must have cost lots of CO2 to produce. Those turbines have a limited lifespan. The same goes for solar panels, the glass in which is difficult to recycle, and if my iPhone is any indication, those ev batteries are going to fizzle out in a few years too, never mind all the implications of mining the rare elements that are used to make them. The point is, this is no straightforward mass of CO2 comparison, it is politics!

[Downsized]

Originally Posted by NoSOD

I have wondered about the tax issue also. This far from an uncomplicated issue. I read recently that EV's wear out tires earlier than a gas vehicle, and also wear out the road earlier, due to increased weight, and torque that presumably spins those tires more often. So there's the carbon impact of all those new tires and road works to consider. On my last trip it took me about 30 seconds to drive past a single blade from one of those wind turbines. They are huge, and must have cost lots of CO2 to produce. Those turbines have a limited lifespan. The same goes for solar panels, the glass in which is difficult to recycle, and if my iPhone is any indication, those ev batteries are going to fizzle out in a few years too, never mind all the implications of mining the rare elements that are used to make them. The point is, this is no straightforward mass of CO2 comparison, it is politics!

Well, yes, EV’s wear out tires faster because of the torque and horsepower. Not the weight. A model Y weighs the same as a grand Cherokee and is about the same size and is pointed at the same market. If you run a Tesla in “chill mode” (a menu selection) then it will go thru tires about the same rate as any other mid sized SUV.

But that’s a slippery slope. Do we start having torque limitations mandated? That would tick off all of those who tow trailers as we kinda like our torque and horsepower. .

[Iowa Dave]

On Iowa US 30 in our area of Eastern Iowa, the 90,000 lb, grain hauling semis are harder on paving than the Teslas, Rivians and Lightnings. Operating in our little county there are easily 50 or more private grain haulers working every day back and forth into Cedar Rapids where they deliver grain to ADM Corn Sweeteners and Cargill soy bean and corn plants for further processing. Not
To mention Ingredion and other grain processors. Corn sweeteners makes corn syrup for soda pop and alcohol for gasahol. It’s a complex world we live in. And it beats up highways.
Iowa Dave

[Mike G]

Now I'm tempted to say something corny.

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by Mike G

Now I'm tempted to say something corny.

Hey Mike
Now don’t go making a corny joke about someone like me who is outstanding in his field.
Thank You
Iowa Dave

[emers382]

Mike and Dave thanks for adding some humour to this thread which was in danger of turning political

[NoSOD]

Originally Posted by Downsized

Well, yes, EV’s wear out tires faster because of the torque and horsepower. Not the weight. A model Y weighs the same as a grand Cherokee and is about the same size and is pointed at the same market. If you run a Tesla in “chill mode” (a menu selection) then it will go thru tires about the same rate as any other mid sized SUV.

But that’s a slippery slope. Do we start having torque limitations mandated? That would tick off all of those who tow trailers as we kinda like our torque and horsepower. .

"Chill Mode"? That just sounds like taking all the fun out of it mode!

I admit I'm not very familiar with Teslas. My vehicle is a 2011 F150. The F150 lighting is the ev version as every knows, and I'm pretty sure it it quite a bit heavier than my truck, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by NoSOD

"Chill Mode"? That just sounds like taking all the fun out of it mode!

Sounds like a more fun name the "Eco" on my F150.

Except for towing I'm always in eco mode. I've forgotten to select it a couple of times and inadvertently sent myself into the seat back. These modes definitely work to avoid using excess hp.

Ron

[escape artist]

Hi: All... I get a real "Charge" out of reading this stuff!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[Rockhead]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

Hey Mike
Now don’t go making a corny joke about someone like me who is outstanding in his field.
Thank You
Iowa Dave

Mmmmmm corn on the cob soon. Nice corn patch. Good thin* you don’t live close ……. Might be a corn raiding party fresh roasted corn mmmmmmmm

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by Rockhead

Mmmmmm corn on the cob soon. Nice corn patch. Good thin* you don’t live close ……. Might be a corn raiding party fresh roasted corn mmmmmmmm

Yes indeed. When will the sweet corn ripen, and what are the field's coordinates? We'll make like raccoons and do a bit of banditry... just kidding.