Ethics and Electricity

[GregWCIL]

I know many of us are excited about future possibilities for EV camping. But along with the positives there will be some bumps in the electric road.
For example, at a recent state campground in Texas we were near a tent site occupied by folks in two Teslas. We saw both cars plugged into the site power plug. I presume they were charging the car batteries.
This is no different imo than someone helping themselves to an unlocked gas tank.
Obviously as EV usage becomes more common, this type issue will need to be addressed. I’ll be curious to see what approaches are taken.
What think you all!

[Chamberman]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

This is no different imo than someone helping themselves to an unlocked gas tank.

Vastly different, what you describe is theft.

These campers paid for their tent site with 15 or 20A electric service. Unless there was a disclaimer in the park contract terms that somehow limited how much of that utility they could use then they were completely within their rights to plug into it and use it 24/7. Several of my friends and I used to go camping many years back. One member of our group always brought along a 12,000BTU AC and sat it in the front entry to his tent and left it running 24/7. He wasn't stealing, being stupid yes, but not stealing.

The park has to price their sites accordingly and that means that expecting that every so often a high electric usage camper will show up. Failing to do so means they aren't good at running a business and even a Texas state park is a business.

[HABBERDABBER]

If you paid for the site, are following the rules, the electricity comes with the site. At the 120V charge capacity, it's equivalent to running an AC and such. 120V is a trickle charge rate for an EV. 240V and up is more of a standard, at high amps.

Do you consider & fret about the tens, hundreds, or tons of CO2 you added to get to the campsite? Every gallon of gasoline combusted produces 20 lbs (POUNDS) of CO2.

EV's produce a fraction of that.

I beg to differ with your premise and concern.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

What think you all!

It's not theft. Campsites with electric service have no limit on how much you can use, beyond what the circuit breaker will bear.



Is it ethical? I would argue yes. EVs can't pull really huge power levels from common electric service. They need a dedicated rapid charger for that. They are probably pulling no more than a large RV equipped with dual AC units, a fridge, TV etc.

[GregWCIL]

A review of a new Winnebago based on an electric Ford Transit mentioned they loved being fully charged compliments of the campsite pedestal. Sounded like more than trickle charging to me.
Another thread here mentioned some campgrounds meter electric use. As I said, it will be interesting to see how it is addressed in the future. And the future is coming very fast.

[Chamberman]

If the Winnebago is in a 50A RV site then they have the capability to Level 2 charge up to about 7200W. Level 2 charging can start at 230V/16A and go up to 40A. So no that's not going to be a trickle charge, but once again the campsite has to allow for that type of use in their fee's or control it somehow in their camping agreement if they do not want it to happen.

What you appeared to mention in your earlier post was a tent site which has a 120V outlet and will usually be capped at 15A. You can only get a Level 1 charge from a 120V outlet. My son's level 1 charger for his Hyundai Ionic starts at 6A and is user select-able at 6, 9, & 12A. They do make Level 1 chargers that will go to 15A too, but most folks will probably be worried about tripping the breaker at a campsite when trying to draw a continuous 15A. Most would probably limit to 12A or 1440W. In the EV world, this would be a trickle charge.

[sunrisetrucker]

The campgrounds have two choices, they either install expensive electrical meters and charge for power used (which will make life much more difficult for them). Or they simply up the rate for all serviced campsites and make non-EV owners pay for the extra power consumed.

Guess which one the majority campgrounds will choose?

If you picked the first one, I've got a bridge in downtown Vancouver BC I'd like to sell to you.

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

A review of a new Winnebago based on an electric Ford Transit mentioned they loved being fully charged compliments of the campsite pedestal. Sounded like more than trickle charging to me.

How long was that camper camping and at their site? 120V will provide a recharge, but it can take DAYS to do so. DAYS! A Chevy BOLT EV at 120V can go from empty to FULL in 50 hours, at 8 amps. That's 2 full days. At 12 amps, around 40 hours.

2 days for "gassing up" sure sounds like a trickle charge to me.

Do your homework. 120V doesn't cut it much, or provide much in EV charging.

Fast EV chargers are 240V or around 400V, with high amperage. Some can charge in 15 minutes, NOT 2 days.

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

The campgrounds have two choices, they either install expensive electrical meters and charge for power used (which will make life much more difficult for them). Or they simply up the rate for all serviced campsites and make non-EV owners pay for the extra power consumed.

Guess which one the majority campgrounds will choose?

If you picked the first one, I've got a bridge in downtown Vancouver BC I'd like to sell to you.

As a 32 year parks administrator. I can confirm that budgets are always on the minds of the top level employees of most governmental agencies.

First, when increased costs are noticed the costs are analyzed and the decision is made to leave things alone or more commonly to figure out how to increase revenue. There are a few campground operators who would attempt to have a fee structure that would cover the costs on a site by site basis.

BUT more likely a general overall increase in fees is instituted. Justification comes easy by citing new developments in the user profile. Increase the size of the camping pads and you’ll get bigger rigs with two or three air conditioners. More electricity used. Raise the fee. Notice more EV units plugged in including golf carts, tow vehicles and the oncoming UTVs and ATVS? Raise the fees. Observe people using blow up kiddie pools on hot weekends? Increase the fees. And to sell the lemony taste of the higher fees, advertise the availability of newer bigger electrical systems, flat spots for kiddie pools, as “lemonade”’included in the cost of your site.

Paint them all with one brush, it’s easier to administer and brings in more revenue.
So yes, just like dumping trash in a roadside ditch, the costs to clean the ditch, results in fees being raised at landfills.
As ditches fill up, landfill fees go up, we used to say.

Whether all these fee increases qualify as inflationary, a thinly veiled money grab, or pay as you go, all users will be the affected public.

Some golfers never use a cart, everybody pays for the installation of new cart paths, right or wrong. YMMV
Iowa Dave

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

If you paid for the site, are following the rules, the electricity comes with the site. At the 120V charge capacity, it's equivalent to running an AC and such. 120V is a trickle charge rate for an EV. 240V and up is more of a standard, at high amps.

Do you consider & fret about the tens, hundreds, or tons of CO2 you added to get to the campsite? Every gallon of gasoline combusted produces 20 lbs (POUNDS) of CO2.

EV's produce a fraction of that.

I can agree with the statement that “electricity comes with the site,” and using it to charge an EV is not unethical. I cannot however agree with the statement about CO2 produced getting to the campsite as it depends on how the electricity was produced. If the generating facility relies on wind, solar, or hydro, then charging the EV has no carbon footprint. But if fossil fuels are used to generate electricity, then the EV driver may not be adding CO2 to get to the campsite, but the power companies do just that to get the EV to the campsite, perhaps not as much as a gasoline or diesel powered vehicles. I would hope that campgrounds would consider additional charges for EVs, if not, when they raise rates to cover higher utility fees everyone will be paying for those with EVs.

[hugh]

In Virginia, electricity is around $0.10/KWh. So, here's a quick calculation of the maximum amount of electricity someone could consume in a 24 hour campsite rental:



15Amp, 120V = 43.2KWh = $4.32
30Amp, 120V = 86.4KWh = $8.64
50Amp, 240V = 288.0KWh = $28.80


That last number is a pretty good chunk of the cost of many campsites around here. I don't think we have to worry any time soon, but one could imagine that some campsites might have to raise the prices if everyone started to charge their EV's on the 50amp service.

[GregWCIL]

Interesting calculation. Are your low electric rates due to hydropower from the TVA?

[Iowa Dave]

The calculations are sound. But in addition, the length of time the recharging takes varies with
the size of the batteries being charged. And if the car is not being driven daily (say the campers are off kayaking or fishing all day), the charger is not putting electricity in the battery once the battery is full.

I will say this, if campers and EV owners can figure out the costs, rest assured the park managers can too. And many times we raised fees and later got a few complaints but not many. In an elected official situation our mantra was “Never raise fees in an election year”. Some elected officials would decide not to run for another term. The ones who were irked by complaining citizens would raise fees on the way out the door if they had the votes on council.
Then the new person would come in, sometimes with the promise of “no fee increases, if I’m elected.” He or she didn’t have to raise fees, the outgoing person set them up for the first year or two.

There are more angles than Donald Duck in mathimagic land on a three cushion billiards table. And that’s the toughest game I ever tried to learn.

Here’s my solar array output for today. The bottomm lines represent saved CO2 emissions and what the savings would be in planted trees. This is cumulative since December 2020.
Iowa Dave

[Ron in BC]

I think this is a classic of case of an emerging technological change maturing over time. Maybe early adopters had a bit of a free ride on recharging but as EVs have become completely mainstream and recharging demands go way up there'll be some changes made.

I predict that in time campground charges will be based on whether a EV power is required the same way there are other charges for water, sewer or for a second vehicle etc.

I see a parallel to another emerging technology that has become mainstream and that's e-bikes. At first they were welcomed as a way to get extra folks to leave the car at home and bike. Now they've evolved to being electric motorcycles and calls are being made to do a rethink the rules for e-bikes.

Ron

[hugh]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

Interesting calculation. Are your low electric rates due to hydropower from the TVA?

That would be nice. In central Virginia, a lot of the power comes from this massive coal plant: https://www.gem.wiki/Chesterfield_power_station


And, actually, I just checked our rates, and they've gone up a little bit so it's actually around $0.12/KWh at the moment.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

Every gallon of gasoline combusted produces 20 lbs (POUNDS) of CO2.

How can 6 lbs of a liquid, when burned, give off 20 lbs of a lightweight gas? Is this some new-fangled math?

[J1973s]

Every gallon of gasoline burned creates 8887 gr of CO2. 454gr/pound, so actually a bit less than 20#(19.58). BTW, a gallon of gasoline weighs about eight pounds (a pint is a pound the world around).
The Carbon (C) combines with Oxygen (O2) from the atmosphere to create the CO2.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Mike G

How can 6 lbs of a liquid, when burned, give off 20 lbs of a lightweight gas? Is this some new-fangled math?

Nope, just old-school addition ....

How Gasoline Becomes CO2
A gallon turns into 19 pounds?

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by hugh

In Virginia, electricity is around $0.10/KWh. So, here's a quick calculation of the maximum amount of electricity someone could consume in a 24 hour campsite rental:



15Amp, 120V = 43.2KWh = $4.32
30Amp, 120V = 86.4KWh = $8.64
50Amp, 240V = 288.0KWh = $28.80


That last number is a pretty good chunk of the cost of many campsites around here. I don't think we have to worry any time soon, but one could imagine that some campsites might have to raise the prices if everyone started to charge their EV's on the 50amp service.

In MY application:
The 15A, 120V figure is not valid as many EV chargers limit current to 80% of rated capacity, (thus 12A) to prevent tripping circuit breakers and fires. An "empty" 65 kWH battery would take 40 hours and cost about $4.00 to fill, at $.10 kWH.

The 30A, 120V would still be limited to 12A charge rate and cost the same.

The 50A, 240V would charge in about 7.5 hours at 32A and cost $7.50 at $.10 kWH.

So these are not huge additional costs. And most electric vehicle users don't go to dead empty before refuelling.
As with most things....IT DEPENDS.

Please correct me if my numbers are off. It's early morning.

[Jim Bennett]

Things will change with campgrounds and fees charged as the cost of more
electrical usage power is seen. I have already seen RV campgrounds that meter the usage of 50A outlets due to the potential high draw of 2 or 3 A/C units and numerous other electrical appliances.

To raise the rates of camping to cover additional costs of electrical usage is kinda unfair to folks like us that really use next to nothing. Maybe A/C if it is really hot.

There already is lots of discussion, around here at least, with how to add tax to electrical vehicles for road usage. Currently the HUGE tax added to fuel at the pump here in Canada includes a large amount for road building and repair. This tax, though ridiculously high, is fair to the degree that the more you use a vehicle, the more you pay towards road work. Not sure how they will judge road usage with electrical vehicle taxing.

Time will tell, this age of EVs is still very much in it's infancy.