Some 2020/21 Tow Vehicles

[JeffreyG]

Your post made me think to update. So my neighbor has an F150 and we checked. It literally cannot make the turn into my garage if my other car is already parked, so the "move the fridge and make it fit" idea was out anyway. No full size extended cab for me!

Drove a Taco, there is just something about the Toyota powertrains I don't like. I also watched the Ike challenge and I noticed that the Taco was down two or more gears and spinning 5500 rpm all the way up. That's a bit much even for me. The other gas trucks (Chevy V6, Ridgeline) were down to ~4500 rpm and still pretty busy.

My buddy who is a powertrain engineer at FCA said "Ugh, don't get a Gladiator." So there is that too.


If you really read the Ridgeline owners manual correctly, it cannot tow an Escape 21 at high altitude. It loses 2% GCVWR for every 1000 feet above sea level.

So I settled on the Chevy Colorado with the 2.8L diesel. I think the GMC version is ugly, but that's me (and my wife, she agrees).

I've crossed the Eisenhower on I-70 at 79,000 pounds several times and I'll agree with you that good engine braking performance is key. One tip if your vehicle is marginal going down is to slow down. It takes less power to hold a lower speed than a high speed.

[jspierce]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

One tip if your vehicle is marginal going down is to slow down. It takes less power to hold a lower speed than a high speed.

Having driven that route many, many times I would say there's a lot of people who should take that advice!

I'm kind of digging the Midnite Edition Z71 with 2.8 too. But, I'm okay waiting a bit until I get closer to trailer delivery before I purchase. Hopefully, you and I both will get our delivery dates moved up!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jspierce

The baby Duramax is the only mid-size diesel choice and as such is the only one with good engine braking.

Unless you count the Gladiator... I don't know if the planned EcoDiesel is available in it yet.

I don't know why an exhaust brake (not a compression-release or "jake" brake, since these small diesels don't have that) would be much more effective than a closed throttle on a gas engine, and I've always found that our 3.3 L gas engine engine brakes enough in the Rockies for our 3,000 pound trailer.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by jspierce

- Toyota Tacoma: kind of old tech. The best off road, but not turbo and marginal powerwise.
- Toyota 4Runner: see Taco
- Ford Explorer: Plenty of power, turbo, but definitely just a station wagon with a tow package; not very "off roadable"
- Ford Ranger: Gets super ratings for that marvelous eco-boost 4 cylinder. Decent offroad in FX4 trim. Some people say it rides and handles rough; need to test drive. It's in the running...
- Jeep Gladiator: Cool for it's excellent off-road abilities, but I've read it has some "issues" with towing stability.
- Chevy/GMC 3.6 gas engine "twins" - Decent off-roadability. Quick on the flats, kind of low on the torque and no turbo. In the running though...
- Chevy/GMC 2.8 Duramax "twins" - Decent off-roadability. Great torque. Kind of low on horsepower - another 30hp would be nice. Turbo, does well at altitude.

One thing that needs to be mentioned: The baby Duramax is the only mid-size diesel choice and as such is the only one with good engine braking.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel isn't on your list? Just curious. It's a mid-size diesel.

[Johnspierce]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Unless you count the Gladiator... I don't know if the planned EcoDiesel is available in it yet.

I don't know why an exhaust brake (not a compression-release or "jake" brake, since these small diesels don't have that) would be much more effective than a closed throttle on a gas engine, and I've always found that our 3.3 L gas engine engine brakes enough in the Rockies for our 3,000 pound trailer.

The “smart” exhaust brake feature on the baby duramax is very sophisticated and effective. It really does make a huge difference; in the Ike Challenge the Canyon diesel took just one application of the brakes in the downhill section. It was the only truck to accomplish that feat. All the other trucks took between 5 and 12 separate applications of the brakes to keep speed under 60mph.

That’s just one aspect of towing of course, but to me it’s important because that’s my backyard. A month ago we were coming home from camping and one lane was closed; we could see smoke from miles off. It took about an hour to get down to where the smoke was and we saw a tractor trailer had heated up the trailer brakes and caught on fire. It literally melted the trailer in half! Fortunately, they were able to separate the cab before it burned too.

[Johnspierce]

Originally Posted by Mike G

The Jeep Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel isn't on your list? Just curious. It's a mid-size diesel.

I haven’t looked at that one yet; I think it’s a solid engine. I wish they still had the Grand Cherokee with the diesel.

[sherminator]

Originally Posted by Johnspierce

I may be confused here; you are saying your F150 loaded is 5900 lbs and the 21NE loaded is 6300 lbs? That's not a typo? I know 21NE is 3465 dry and most people say 4200-4300 wet; you are carrying an additional 2000 lb load in your 21NE? What is the GCWR on your rig?

I was camping over the weekend, and so didn't see this question until today.

What I meant was that my truck unhitched weighed 5900 lbs. Hitched to my trailer, my truck weighed out at 6300 lbs. The effective tongue weight was 400 lbs using the WDH. The axle weight of the trailer was 4000 lbs - that is separate from the truck weight. All together, truck & trailer weighed out at 10,300 lbs.

My GCWR is 12,800 lbs. I'm well under that, but topped out on my truck's payload capacity when loaded up and hitched to the trailer, as my GVWR is 6500 lbs.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Johnspierce

The “smart” exhaust brake feature on the baby duramax is very sophisticated and effective. It really does make a huge difference; in the Ike Challenge the Canyon diesel took just one application of the brakes in the downhill section. It was the only truck to accomplish that feat. All the other trucks took between 5 and 12 separate applications of the brakes to keep speed under 60mph.

That makes sense, but the difference is likely mostly in the transmission control logic which downshifts to increase engine braking effectiveness, rather than in the actual amount of braking that the engine can do.

[Johnspierce]

Originally Posted by sherminator

I was camping over the weekend, and so didn't see this question until today.

What I meant was that my truck unhitched weighed 5900 lbs. Hitched to my trailer, my truck weighed out at 6300 lbs. The effective tongue weight was 400 lbs using the WDH. The axle weight of the trailer was 4000 lbs - that is separate from the truck weight. All together, truck & trailer weighed out at 10,300 lbs.

My GCWR is 12,800 lbs. I'm well under that, but topped out on my truck's payload capacity when loaded up and hitched to the trailer, as my GVWR is 6500 lbs.

Thanks for the clarification, that makes perfect sense and sounds well-balanced. Good point about how you can be under GCWR but still be tapped out on payload.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That makes sense, but the difference is likely mostly in the transmission control logic which downshifts to increase engine braking effectiveness, rather than in the actual amount of braking that the engine can do.

We don't know, because the manufacturers don't publish their braking torque curves unfortunately.

I do know that these light duty diesels do not use typical compression release brakes. They do have a lot of flexibility in use of the VNT, which is why I suspect the performance goes beyond just a shift strategy. If one closes down the vanes, you generate boost despite having no enthalpy in the exhaust. You also get a high exhaust manifold pressure because the turbine entrance is closed off. Driving the engine to push a large volume of air against that high pressure seems to be pretty effective.

The gas engines can rev much higher, and if capable of similar negative torque would then perform even better when paired with a shift strategy that maximized braking performance. Since they don't, I believe the conclusion is that the LD diesels are able to use their turbochargers to generate better brake power levels than the vacuum drag of a normal SI engine of similar rating.

It may also be that the transmission with the gas engine can't be programmed to downshift as much because running extreme vacuum levels over prolonged duration brings significant problems with pulling oil past rings etc. So maybe the V6 could generate similar braking, but the negatives are too high so the transmission programming is less aggressive.

[UncleTim]

I see Toyota Tundra is not getting much attention. I drive the I-70 corridor on a regular basis as well as lots of other passes in Colorado.

I really love the 5.7L V8 in my 2018 Tundra Limited. The ride is superb. The truck is totally comfortable and owns everything it pulls, including my 5.0. The 5.7L engine never lacks for power and always has plenty in reserve.

Gas mileage going to the Tunnel approach with the 5.0 hitched up, from the East is about 10 mph. I get between 10 and 17 mpg with the 5.0 on it. Usually my mileage is about 12 mpg.

Another nice thing about the Tundra is it is a full size truck and the combo with the 5.0 almost never budges in the wind. It is a great, great combo.

I love mine.

[jspierce]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

I see Toyota Tundra is not getting much attention. I drive the I-70 corridor on a regular basis as well as lots of other passes in Colorado.

I really love the 5.7L V8 in my 2018 Tundra Limited. The ride is superb. The truck is totally comfortable and owns everything it pulls, including my 5.0. The 5.7L engine never lacks for power and always has plenty in reserve.

Gas mileage going to the Tunnel approach with the 5.0 hitched up, from the East is about 10 mph. I get between 10 and 17 mpg with the 5.0 on it. Usually my mileage is about 12 mpg.

Another nice thing about the Tundra is it is a full size truck and the combo with the 5.0 almost never budges in the wind. It is a great, great combo.

I love mine.

Tundra is a great vehicle. All the full-size pickups are "out" for me because they won't fit in my garage.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

We don't know, because the manufacturers don't publish their braking torque curves unfortunately.

No, but in a test drive the transmission can be downshifted manually. In the TFL Truck tests they attempt to minimize the effect of driver actions by using only automatic transmission control, so it is possible that those trucks that needed ten touches of the brake pedal in their test would have only needed one... plus a manual flick of the downshift button/lever/paddle.

My motorhome (which has the same powertrain as a circa 2004 Ford SuperDuty V10) will not engine brake much at all if not in Tow/Haul, does not brake quite enough for steep grades with just brake pedal application even in Tow/Haul, but is very effective if cruise control is used (it automatically downshifts to keep speed from rising over the set speed if in Tow/Haul); the TFL Truck test would probably not use cruise control and would not find very good engine braking.

[yangstyle]

I also use cruise control in tow/haul mode in the mountains going down steep grades and the 5.0 L V8 engine braking works very well.

[jspierce]

Originally Posted by yangstyle

I also use cruise control in tow/haul mode in the mountains going down steep grades and the 5.0 L V8 engine braking works very well.

That's cool. I'm looking forward to getting a more modern tow vehicle. My tow/haul mode on my Nissan is "hit the gas or brakes, maybe downshift manually..."

[yangstyle]

Originally Posted by jspierce

That's cool. I'm looking forward to getting a more modern tow vehicle. My tow/haul mode on my Nissan is "hit the gas or brakes, maybe downshift manually..."

I think the newer trucks are all very capable, they should be for the $ they ask for them

[Micheal K]

Came across this summary of 2016/2017 SUV and van tow ratings. Seems to include all the full-sized SUVs and some of the mid-sized ones as well. They also do a calculation of a maximum tow rating when including a vehicle load for a family of 4 and a 12% tongue weight - similar to JeffreyG's nicely laid out spreadsheet in the first post.

https://fifthwheelst.com/suv-van-towing-reviews.html

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

Came across this summary of 2016/2017 SUV and van tow ratings. Seems to include all the full-sized SUVs and some of the mid-sized ones as well. They also do a calculation of a maximum tow rating when including a vehicle load for a family of 4 and a 12% tongue weight - similar to JeffreyG's nicely laid out spreadsheet in the first post.

https://fifthwheelst.com/suv-van-towing-reviews.html

The list is "interesting"... almost all of the SUVs listed are 4X2, and I doubt you could buy any of those without 4WD off a dealer's lot here - you might not even be able to special-order them.

The list is also almost four years old. Perhaps the best use of this is to read and understand how they reached their rating values, and to similarly use RV Tow Check or a similar tool to calculate how much trailer a current vehicle of interest would be able to tow while carrying your load.

[Doug2000]

Originally Posted by jspierce

This is a very interesting thread to me on several levels. I have a deposit on a 21NE to be delivered in April 2022, so I have some time to make the towing decision. Right now, I have a Coleman Evolution popup that I pull with my Nissan Xterra. The Xterra is rated at 5000 GVWR, has 261 hp, 285 lb ft torque, so pretty comparable to a Taco or 4Runner with maybe a little more torque.

I live in Denver, so the "Ike Challenge" is almost a weekend occurrence for me in the summer time Like Jeffrey, I have a 20 ft long garage and don't want to park my tow vehicle outside, so that means SUV or Mid-Size Truck. Preferably turbocharged since I do quite a bit of towing above 7,000 ft. Here's my current thoughts which might change over the next few months.

- Toyota Tacoma: kind of old tech. The best off road, but not turbo and marginal powerwise.
- Toyota 4Runner: see Taco
- Ford Explorer: Plenty of power, turbo, but definitely just a station wagon with a tow package; not very "off roadable"
- Ford Ranger: Gets super ratings for that marvelous eco-boost 4 cylinder. Decent offroad in FX4 trim. Some people say it rides and handles rough; need to test drive. It's in the running...
- Jeep Gladiator: Cool for it's excellent off-road abilities, but I've read it has some "issues" with towing stability.
- Chevy/GMC 3.6 gas engine "twins" - Decent off-roadability. Quick on the flats, kind of low on the torque and no turbo. In the running though...
- Chevy/GMC 2.8 Duramax "twins" - Decent off-roadability. Great torque. Kind of low on horsepower - another 30hp would be nice. Turbo, does well at altitude.

One thing that needs to be mentioned: The baby Duramax is the only mid-size diesel choice and as such is the only one with good engine braking. If you've ever actually done the "Ike Challenge" on I-70 from Eisenhower Tunnel to Denver, you know how important this is -- it's a really steep grade for about 40 miles and can be quite dangerous when towing a vehicle if you don't watch your braking. I'm leaning GMC Canyon AT-4 2.8 diesel right now, but keeping an open mind.

here's a link to the stats from various tow vehicles on the Ike Challenge:

https://tfltruck.com/2020/05/these-a...ntlet-podcast/

I advise people to stay around 50% capacity when buying a camping trailer. Towing can be very hard on a vehicle. When the light turns green, do you floor it, really towing is about as hard on your vehicle.

On a cross country trip from London Ontario to Los Angeles we traveled through Colorado. Wow, I was so unprepared. We had a 2017 4Runner and our 2007 Escape 17B. We were in 3rd gear going up to the Eisenhower tunnel, we held 2nd gear coming back over Loveland Pass. The old Escape wasn't 2200lbs. I was really disappointed with the 4Runner at first. I have since bought a Tundra.

Being a Denver resident, I think your on the right path, Colorado Diesel, Ranger EcoBoost, maybe a Silverado 3.0 Duramax. Maybe consider the Ford F150 EcoBoost, I hear they have ironed out a lot of the problems they had. Me, I can't wait for the new Tundra V6 Twin Turbo, then I coming back to do the Ike with the new Escape 19 in tow.

[stephen99]

We have the GMC Canyon with the diesel and full timed for 2 years mostly out west. Used Tow/Haul mode frequently in the mountains. It worked great. Only touched the brakes occasionally. Plus we got good mileage. On level ground with no wind it would do 20 MPG. With a good tailwind it would get to 25 MPG. The only problem we ever had was a flat tire.