Some 2020/21 Tow Vehicles

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

I advise people to stay around 50% capacity when buying a camping trailer. Towing can be very hard on a vehicle.

On a cross country trip from London Ontario to Los Angeles we traveled through Colorado. Wow, I was so unprepared. We had a 2017 4Runner and our 2007 Escape 17B. We were in 3rd gear going up to the Eisenhower tunnel, we held 2nd gear coming back over Loveland Pass. The old Escape wasn't 2200lbs. I was really disappointed with the 4Runner at first. I have since bought a Tundra.

50% is really conservative, even for someone full-timing. The problem with being so conservative is that it puts people into really big, impractical vehicles for the 90% of the time they are not towing. I know some people love them, but today's full-size pickups are really enormous vehicles for commuting and running errands. I live in a neighborhood where the houses have 3 or 4 car garages. The only cars I see parked outside are full-size pickup crew cabs because they just don't fit in garages very well.

To be a little ridiculous, to hew to a 50% guideline would put anyone looking at a regular (stick built) 5th wheel into an F-450, and it would put anyone looking at a toy-hauler into an F-750.

I think your experience with a 4Runner at Eisenhower is typical, especially with the Toyota powertrain. Look at most gas engine power curves, they are rated at X HP @ Y rpm, and Y tends to be up around 5000 rpm. So when you really need that power, that's what the transmission will have to do. It isn't comfortable driving up a mountain with the engine screaming like that, but it isn't actually damaging the engine either. For sure a 4Runner with a 17B is a very reasonable tow combination.

I understand people will have different levels of comfort. I ultimately decided on the GM mid-size pickups with the 2.8 diesel because they are not too huge, and will actually be pretty comfortable towing. But I will be close to 100% of the vehicle cargo capacity (which is actually within 150 pounds of your Tundra's) and I'll use more than 50% of the towing capacity.

Cars are designed, and tested, to tow and carry up to their stated limits. But they are not intended to do so all the time. If you use your car 90% for commuting and 10% towing, it's reasonable to buy a car well suited to commuting so long as you are not over capacity towing. The more margin you have to the towing limit, the more comfortable it will be, but you have to weigh that against how comfortable it is to dock your truck in a parking lot.

[Mark B1]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

50% is really conservative, even for someone full-timing............................................ ........ The more margin you have to the towing limit, the more comfortable it will be, but you have to weigh that against how comfortable it is to dock your truck in a parking lot.

Exactly

[Effie]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

50% is really conservative, even for someone full-timing. The problem with being so conservative is that it puts people into really big, impractical vehicles for the 90% of the time they are not towing. I know some people love them, but today's full-size pickups are really enormous vehicles for commuting and running errands. I live in a neighborhood where the houses have 3 or 4 car garages. The only cars I see parked outside are full-size pickup crew cabs because they just don't fit in garages very well.

To be a little ridiculous, to hew to a 50% guideline would put anyone looking at a regular (stick built) 5th wheel into an F-450, and it would put anyone looking at a toy-hauler into an F-750.

Exactly what I'm thinking every time I see the 50% recommendation.

[Rossue]

Ok, so if 50% is too conservative- what is 90%? That's what you get with a 5,000 tow rating towing a Gen2 21.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Ok, so if 50% is too conservative- what is 90%? That's what you get with a 5,000 tow rating towing a Gen2 21.

Maybe. This question touches on a different point, and one that is a problem with OEM marketing of "tow rating". Often it is really hard to tow a trailer that reaches the "tow rating" in a lot of cars without first violating the GVWR or the GCVWR. This is especially the case if you have a lot of people and stuff in the car.

So while I don't really agree with very conservative "tow only 50% of what your car is rated to tow" advice, I do suggest reading your car's placard and owners manual in detail to understand what it can really tow.

Unfortunately this isn't always easy for some people to grasp. You need to figure out your cargo (all people, gear, tongue weight, and trailer hitch) for the GVWR. This often winds up being the limiting factor well before reaching GCVWR.

But as for GCVWR, also watch that some OEMs (like Honda) delete 2% of GCVWR per 1000 feet elevation. So for these makes your GCVWR may not be what you think if you are in the mountains.


It's kind of funny to have this conversation on a fiberglass trailer forum where the trailer weights are so low. When I'm on the road I see a lot of big stick-built rigs that I know are over at least one measure all the time. I see F-250's pulling three axle toy-haulers. No way is that legit unless the 'garage' is empty.

[Brian B-P]

It seems to me that the advice to leave a huge margin usually results from not considering all of those limits - instead of working through each limit, it is assumed that at least one of them will be violated if near the gross trailer weight rating, but none will be at 50% (or 75%, or whatever the arbitrary factor is). I think it's worth spending a few minutes to check everything and find the real limitations, instead of taking wild guesses.

If the concern is with (for instance) powertrain performance, it would make more sense to me to assign a lower GCWR and assess capacity against that.

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

When I'm on the road I see a lot of big stick-built rigs that I know are over at least one measure all the time. I see F-250's pulling three axle toy-haulers. No way is that legit unless the 'garage' is empty.

True, and since the garage is centred behind the axles, if it is empty the pin weight is even higher and the rear axle load is even more likely to be over GAWR.

I heard a few years ago that the agency that handles commercial vehicle regulation enforcement in British Columbia was checking private recreational rigs, and finding lots of overweight truck-trailer rigs... big ones, not mid-sized SUVs and 21-foot travel trailers. 2500-class pickups and fifth-wheels are typical examples. "I have real truck which can handle anything' is a common - and dangerous - attitude, encouraged by advertising that shows unreasonable rigs and pushes just the trailer weight rating.

[Doug2000]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

50% is really conservative, even for someone full-timing. The problem with being so conservative is that it puts people into really big, impractical vehicles for the 90% of the time they are not towing. I know some people love them, but today's full-size pickups are really enormous vehicles for commuting and running errands. I live in a neighborhood where the houses have 3 or 4 car garages. The only cars I see parked outside are full-size pickup crew cabs because they just don't fit in garages very well.

To be a little ridiculous, to hew to a 50% guideline would put anyone looking at a regular (stick built) 5th wheel into an F-450, and it would put anyone looking at a toy-hauler into an F-750.

I think your experience with a 4Runner at Eisenhower is typical, especially with the Toyota powertrain. Look at most gas engine power curves, they are rated at X HP @ Y rpm, and Y tends to be up around 5000 rpm. So when you really need that power, that's what the transmission will have to do. It isn't comfortable driving up a mountain with the engine screaming like that, but it isn't actually damaging the engine either. For sure a 4Runner with a 17B is a very reasonable tow combination.

I understand people will have different levels of comfort. I ultimately decided on the GM mid-size pickups with the 2.8 diesel because they are not too huge, and will actually be pretty comfortable towing. But I will be close to 100% of the vehicle cargo capacity (which is actually within 150 pounds of your Tundra's) and I'll use more than 50% of the towing capacity.

Cars are designed, and tested, to tow and carry up to their stated limits. But they are not intended to do so all the time. If you use your car 90% for commuting and 10% towing, it's reasonable to buy a car well suited to commuting so long as you are not over capacity towing. The more margin you have to the towing limit, the more comfortable it will be, but you have to weigh that against how comfortable it is to dock your truck in a parking lot.

I always loved lining up at the drag strip and holding it to the floor, but unfortunately I have been left at the side of the road twice with late model cars hours from home. Now I am pretty cautious about how I drive my daily driver, towing included.

My advice is based on experience. When my kids were young, we had a Ford Freestar with the 4.2L V6 rated at 3500lbs capacity. The dealer talked me into the 2004 Fleetwood Redwood 14' box high wall at 2600lbs. The van towed it great running down the highway, but in the hills, it worked really hard (around Ontario at 800' elevation), even with the big V6. Eventually that van left me at the side of the road. Oh and there was that one time a kid pulled out in front of me and I almost had to ditch it, another reason for more truck than trailer.

Ultimately, I want a Cummins to tow my Escape 19.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

My advice is based on experience. When my kids were young, we had a Ford Freestar with the 4.2L V6 rated at 3500lbs capacity. The dealer talked me into the 2004 Fleetwood Redwood 14' box high wall at 2600lbs. The van towed it great running down the highway, but in the hills, it worked really hard (around Ontario at 800' elevation), even with the big V6.

Any car loaded to near GCVWR is going to be working hard while towing. I guess my expectation is that that's totally normal and, since I'm only towing for a small fraction of the miles it's within the expected use case for the car.

I will say though, I'm a little surprised that a Freestar was rated to tow a high-wall. It is (I checked) mainly because it has a different approach compared to most minivans. Typically mini-vans are rated to "3500 pounds" with 150 pounds in the van, and every pound over 150 in the van comes off the tow rating. The Freestar is different, it really has an 8700 lb GCVWR. But then I wonder if this generous approach from Ford is partially why your experience was not great.

Eventually that van left me at the side of the road.

I wore out and died from being run hard? Or it had a reliability failure?

Oh and there was that one time a kid pulled out in front of me and I almost had to ditch it, another reason for more truck than trailer.

A 4300 lb van should be competent with a 2600 lb trailer. We're the trailer brakes pulling evenly and dialed in correctly on the controller? What was your hitch system? No vehicle towing is a sports car, but hitch selection and setup can go a long way.

Ultimately, I want a Cummins to tow my Escape 19.

3/4 and 1 ton pickups are pure misery as commuters. Just awful. I'd rather drive my Mercedes C-class everywhere and I only compromise up to a mid-size pickup because I need it for towing. If I had to get a 1-ton, I'd get a smaller trailer.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

When my kids were young, we had a Ford Freestar with the 4.2L V6 rated at 3500lbs capacity. The dealer talked me into the 2004 Fleetwood Redwood 14' box high wall at 2600lbs. The van towed it great running down the highway, but in the hills, it worked really hard (around Ontario at 800' elevation), even with the big V6. Eventually that van left me at the side of the road.

The only time a vehicle failed me on the highway it wasn't towing at all.

Was 2600 pounds the actual weight of the trailer, as loaded, or just the empty trailer weight?

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

I will say though, I'm a little surprised that a Freestar was rated to tow a high-wall. It is (I checked) mainly because it has a different approach compared to most minivans. Typically mini-vans are rated to "3500 pounds" with 150 pounds in the van, and every pound over 150 in the van comes off the tow rating. The Freestar is different, it really has an 8700 lb GCVWR. But then I wonder if this generous approach from Ford is partially why your experience was not great.

Our Toyota Sienna has a similar GCWR and trailer weight rating, and with a trailer at the maximum trailer weight rating there is still lots of room between the van's gross vehicle weight and GVWR, and between the combination gross weight and GCWR. It is rated for a 3500 pound trailer, but if rated like a pickup (using every pound between curb weight and GCWR as trailer) it could have been rated at about 4500 pounds. I don't see any reason for the Freestar to be much different.

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

A 4300 lb van should be competent with a 2600 lb trailer.

Our Sienna has no problem with a 3,000 pound trailer. I agree that the very similar Freestar shouldn't, either, but then that one vehicle which stranded me on a highway was a Ford...

[yangstyle]

One thing to keep in mind is the size of the frontal area of the trailer being pulled. Ford has an equation in their manual to take that into account. I never did it myself as I believe that with our truck and the 21C we are well within specs for towing but if you are close to the max towing capacity it might be something to consider.
I assume that when the TV manufacturer does their testing for max weight towable that they use a low sided trailer with the weight needed for testing. Once you start towing a big box that is 9 feet tall and 7-8 feet wide the extra resistance could make a difference.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by yangstyle

I assume that when the TV manufacturer does their testing for max weight towable that they use a low sided trailer with the weight needed for testing. Once you start towing a big box that is 9 feet tall and 7-8 feet wide the extra resistance could make a difference.

When I've been out on summer test and spotted the passenger car teams doing the same, they pull flat bed trailers loaded with ballast, but they usually also have a large panel (like 7' wide by 9' tall) mounted upright for drag.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by yangstyle

I assume that when the TV manufacturer does their testing for max weight towable that they use a low sided trailer with the weight needed for testing. Once you start towing a big box that is 9 feet tall and 7-8 feet wide the extra resistance could make a difference.

Most manufacturers (at least the responsible ones) rate tow vehicles for the North American market using SAE standard J2807, which specifies (among many other things) the frontal area of the test trailer according the weight. It is essentially an enclosed cargo trailer reasonably sized for the weight, which means that it has a substantial frontal area but is still smaller than a travel trailer of the same weight (because a travel trailer is mostly filled with air, not cargo, so it is large for its weight).

For an example, for a trailer weight of 3500 to 5000 pounds (which would cover most Escapes) the specified frontal area is 3.72 m2 (40 ft2). That would correspond to a typical 6 foot (1.8m) wide cargo trailer, but even an Escape 19' is 7 feet wide and has roughly 50 square feet of frontal area, and the 21' is wider.

J2807 also assumes that a 3500 to 5000 pound trailer has tandem axles on ST205/75R15 tires, which exactly matches all Escapes in that weight range.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

When I've been out on summer test and spotted the passenger car teams doing the same, they pull flat bed trailers loaded with ballast, but they usually also have a large panel (like 7' wide by 9' tall) mounted upright for drag.

Wow, that's much harder to pull though the air than a 7' wide by 9' tall box of any reasonable length.

[yangstyle]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

When I've been out on summer test and spotted the passenger car teams doing the same, they pull flat bed trailers loaded with ballast, but they usually also have a large panel (like 7' wide by 9' tall) mounted upright for drag.

I am surprised to hear that they test tow with a large panel. Good to hear, that is what can happen when you assume things.

[John in Santa Cruz]

I think 50% is a good target for long distance towing with a unibody FWD centric crossover kinda vehicle. with a 'real' ladder frame RWD-centric truck, you can run much closer to the limits.

that said I'm using a F250 diesel (rated for 12500 lb. hitch tow) to tow a 4500 lb. Escape :-P

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by yangstyle

I am surprised to hear that they test tow with a large panel. Good to hear, that is what can happen when you assume things.

I don't recall which manufacturer(s) that was at the time, but it also does make sense. Nice and easy to change up the ballast if you need to in the field.



We test our trucks pulling standard 53' van trailers loaded with 4000 lb concrete blocks because that matches our typical customers. But if you want to change the load you need a dock. No way to get blocks on or off in the field.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

We test our trucks pulling standard 53' van trailers loaded with 4000 lb concrete blocks because that matches our typical customers. But if you want to change the load you need a dock. No way to get blocks on or off in the field.

You just need a truck-mounted (hitchhiker, piggyback) forklift, like building supply and sod companies use, with a fabric-sided trailer. But we're getting very far from travel trailers...

[oldwave]

We tow our 21 with a 2004 F150 5.4 with a tow package rated for 8500 lbs. 4x2 supercab. Plenty of capacity with a payload of 1800 lbs. There is a bed cover that is pretty heavy and we carry lots of stuff in the bed. Tows like a dream. The only time it struggled was the Vail pass where I could not get over 50. Would like 6 speed instead of 4, but I bought it in 2017 with 37000 miles on it for 12000. It was garage queen owned by an engineer and had not a spec of rust anywhere. No modern features much outside of an added backup camera. Gas mileage is about 12 towing. However the 28000 I saved buys a lot of gas. I’ll keep it. We had looked at a Ridgeline and old 4 runner with a 4.6 v8, but this truck was a great find. I’ll look next year at the Turbo Tundras though. Base model.

[Mike G]

Assuming that hard acceleration stresses a drive train more than easy acceleration (which could shorten the lifespan of some components), and assuming that towing a trailer likewise stresses a drive train more than non-towing, what about turbocharging? Seems like a turbo pushes an engine harder than it would be pushed in normal aspiration, so my question is, will turbocharged engines have a shorter life than non-turbo engines? If so, has this ever been quantified in any manner?

[Rossue]

For one thing the compression ratio is lower on a turbo motor. It is another thing to go wrong though, just like power windows.