Survey - truck payload ratings with 5.0TA

[camp4528]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

As we discussed a couple of years ago, that 19% "minimum" is nonsense.

Brian, I generally find your thoughts well reasoned and helpful. Thank you.

The current ETI Escape 5.0 towing guide (https://f.hubspotusercontent40.net/hubfs/5474298/Escape%205.0%20TA/ETI-01095-01TOWING-GUIDELINES-ESCAPE-5.0-1.pdf?hsCtaTracking=310c5b99-6a0c-4919-a151-aa96eebda217%7C1d5b288d-a605-4a34-abc7-908a7792d9a4) has the pin weight of 680lb (646 on the ETI spec page) for the trailer dry weight of 3910 and that is about 17.3 (16.5) percent.

Based on your comments and thoughts, is that 16-17% pin weight more appropriate or is there another target you have in mind.

Thank you...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by camp4528

The current ETI Escape 5.0 towing guide (https://f.hubspotusercontent40.net/hubfs/5474298/Escape%205.0%20TA/ETI-01095-01TOWING-GUIDELINES-ESCAPE-5.0-1.pdf?hsCtaTracking=310c5b99-6a0c-4919-a151-aa96eebda217%7C1d5b288d-a605-4a34-abc7-908a7792d9a4) has the pin weight of 680lb (646 on the ETI spec page) for the trailer dry weight of 3910 and that is about 17.3 (16.5) percent.

Based on your comments and thoughts, is that 16-17% pin weight more appropriate or is there another target you have in mind.

Yes, in previous discussions the typical pin weight of loaded 5.0TA's is right around that 16-17% and it works well.

[NCBill]

One thing about payload rating, that is for the truck when it left the factory. Anything added by the owner, the dealer or anyone else comes out of payload. In my case I got a rhino spray in bed liner, then Ford side steps (both sides), then tow mirrors. All came out of payload. Soit keeps dropping. Since I have a bumper pull, I also have a bed camper top. Then in my case you have tongue weight and ball receiver. Add a generator, a cooler, our dog and two passengers and it pretty much goes away.

It’s frustrating to have a high tow rating (9,900 pounds), but not nearly enough payload capacity to get near that).

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

As we discussed a couple of years ago, that 19% "minimum" is nonsense. It was copied into Escape's manual from some random source by someone who had no idea what they were doing. It is wildly inappropriate for the Escape 5.0, of any generation. Most properly loaded Escape fifth-wheels are well under 19% pin weight.

But if you are going to carry 900 pounds of pin weight, then it certainly is advisable to allow for that in the required payload of the truck.

LOL, No thanks, I will continue to follow the owners manual that came with my trailer. Escape Trailers owners manual goes into great detail in regards to proper pin weight and properly loading your trailer for safe travel and co insides with all the well respected manufactures and authorities.



Seems awful strange ETI has never corrected this rogue employee dastardly deed.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Tin

LOL, No thanks, I will continue to follow the owners manual that came with my trailer. Escape Trailers owners manual goes into great detail in regards to proper pin weight and properly loading your trailer for safe travel and co insides with all the well respected manufactures and authorities.


Seems awful strange ETI has never corrected this rogue employee dastardly deed.

Brian B-P is the right (as usual). The fifth wheel towing guidance from the manufacturer of the tow vehicle has a considerably greater weight as compared to that from Escape industries, which leaves all aspects of the towing setup to the customer.

Here is what Ford has to say about fifth wheel towing pin weight (for F150) - Trailer king pin load weight should be 15% of total loaded trailer weight. I'd take Ford engineering's advice in this matter.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content..._F150_Dec3.pdf - Quoted statement on Page 6

The prototypical 5th wheel trailer that eTrailer person is referring to is a very different beast, compared to Escape 5.0. I have had people tell me that F150 is not something to tow a fifth wheel with, only to pull back when Escape 5.0 weight, etc. are discussed. So, the conversation from etrailer is outside this context.

PS: There is a Ford document: eSourceBook for Dealers - Specing F Series for Towing. I have it but it is too big to attach here. It helped a lot in getting my bearings on this matter, and answers questions that come up frequently here.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Tin

Seems awful strange ETI has never corrected this rogue employee dastardly deed.

It's not surprising at all. It's likely that none of the staff at Escape had even towed a fifth-wheel trailer when they put that in the manual, and Reace probably never even read it... just as he never read or noticed the incorrect description of the frame material which ETI published for many years, until he was asked and reported that it was nonsense. The current owners probably couldn't tell you what the pin weight should be or what actual owners run for pin weight if their life depended on it, as they had nothing to do with designing the trailer. Just curious, Tin: did you ever check with Reace and Tammy to see if they followed this ridiculous advice with their own 5.0TA... or did they tempt death like everyone else towing this model?

[Tin]

Originally Posted by kavm

Brian B-P is the right (as usual). The fifth wheel towing guidance from the manufacturer of the tow vehicle has a considerably greater weight as compared to that from Escape industries, which leaves all aspects of the towing setup to the customer.

Here is what Ford has to say about fifth wheel towing pin weight (for F150) - Trailer king pin load weight should be 15% of total loaded trailer weight. I'd take Ford engineering's advice in this matter.

Ford nor any other truck manufacture dictates what your actual tongue weight or pin weight should be, they would never voluntarily subject themselves to lawsuits. Brochures and their data are not truck specific and notes usually refer to the testing procedure they are conducting, in this case SAE J2807.

The trailer manufacture is responsible for their trailer.
The truck manufacture is responsible for their truck.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by kavm

The prototypical 5th wheel trailer that eTrailer person is referring to is a very different beast, compared to Escape 5.0. I have had people tell me that F150 is not something to tow a fifth wheel with, only to pull back when Escape 5.0 weight, etc. are discussed. So, the conversation from etrailer is outside this context.

No I do not believe it is out of context. The trailer mentioned is a 21 foot 5th wheel trailer with a dry weight of 5,700 lbs. Belief it or not their is a member
on this forum with a 5.0 TA that weighs 5,700 lbs and has a tongue weight in the 750 lbs range.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It's not surprising at all. It's likely that none of the staff at Escape had even towed a fifth-wheel trailer when they put that in the manual, and Reace probably never even read it... just as he never read or noticed the incorrect description of the frame material which ETI published for many years, until he was asked and reported that it was nonsense. The current owners probably couldn't tell you what the pin weight should be or what actual owners run for pin weight if their life depended on it, as they had nothing to do with designing the trailer. Just curious, Tin: did you ever check with Reace and Tammy to see if they followed this ridiculous advice with their own 5.0TA... or did they tempt death like everyone else towing this model?

LOL, No Brian I have never spoken with Reace about his towing preferences but If I understand what you are alluding to you are probably right . I had the pleasure of meeting Reace on two occasions and even though we did not agree on several subjects ( He suggested a sliding hitch in the extended position to tow my 5.0. I just laughed and said sure as long as you are willing to put it in writing, he just laughed and we moved on. ) I walked away each time liking him? he has a great personality and a can do attitude.

As for Deaths, well sadly they happen every year. Some out of ignorance, some out arrogance, some just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As for me, I do my best to keep my family safe.

[DanandDaphne]

According to the specs from Escape https://escapetrailer.com/escape-5-0-specifications/ the 5.0 completely empty and no options (dry weight 3,910lbs. pin weight 646ibs.) has a pin weight of 16.5% so unloaded it is not within the good towing range of 19% to 25% pin weight.

So if fully loaded at 5,500lbs. you pin weight should be 907lbs if you keep the same ratio.

I haven't looked at the specs of any of the behemoth variety of fifth wheel trailers but I am guessing that their pin weights do fall in the 19% to 25% of the dry weight.

It's safe from a liability standpoint to recommend whatever the industry standard is which is 19 to 25%. If escape were to recommend less they would be opening themselves up to unnecessary liability.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

According to the specs from Escape https://escapetrailer.com/escape-5-0-specifications/ the 5.0 completely empty and no options (dry weight 3,910lbs. pin weight 646ibs.) has a pin weight of 16.5% so unloaded it is not within the good towing range of 19% to 25% pin weight.

True. Do you think Escape staff insist that all buyers pile concrete blocks into the front of 5.0TA's being picked up to be able to safely tow them away.

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

I haven't looked at the specs of any of the behemoth variety of fifth wheel trailers but I am guessing that their pin weights do fall in the 19% to 25% of the dry weight.

Yes, they do.

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

It's safe from a liability standpoint to recommend whatever the industry standard is which is 19 to 25%. If escape were to recommend less they would be opening themselves up to unnecessary liability.

Not really. There is a common industry practice, but no actual standard. The current statement in the manual risks exposing trailer owners to liability, as almost none of them fall within that range so any could be falsely accused of improper operation based on the nonsense in the manual.

[escape artist]

Hi: All... The only nonsense I know about payload is that when I load...I pay!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[splitting_lanes]

Our GMC Canyon Long bed diesel is on its way, and while I don’t know the exact payload, I can guess what it is based upon another users response. Somewhere around 1280#

[sameo416]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

According to the specs from Escape https://escapetrailer.com/escape-5-0-specifications/ the 5.0 completely empty and no options (dry weight 3,910lbs. pin weight 646ibs.) has a pin weight of 16.5% so unloaded it is not within the good towing range of 19% to 25% pin weight..

The one resource on towing I could find is JD Gallant’s 2003 towing guide, that provides some advice based on accident reports and the physics of towing. He recommends 17-25%, but in his rating guides sets the minimum safe pin wight at 15%.

I've found lots of information on tow limits. Gallants is the only so far that is based on comprehensive collection of accident stats.

[salmo7000]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

Our GMC Canyon Long bed diesel is on its way, and while I don’t know the exact payload, I can guess what it is based upon another users response. Somewhere around 1280#

It might even be 100 lbs higher than that. My Colorado has 1,390. Long bed with crew cab, 4X4.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

Our GMC Canyon Long bed diesel is on its way, and while I don’t know the exact payload, I can guess what it is based upon another users response. Somewhere around 1280#

Be very careful what you take. When my truck (2020 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost) is loaded with our “necessities” of an RV road trip (except for an Xtend & Climb ladder weighing 32 lbs which is nice to have but not necessary), the total weight of passengers and cargo, including 740 lbs of pin weight is 1,699 lbs (scale weight). Since the pillar sticker states 1,937 lbs, I have a 238 lbs leeway. With only 1,280 lbs (or even the 1,390 lbs mentioned in the previous post) you will need to be judicious in what you pack in order not to exceed the Canyon’s cargo weight specifications.

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

Our GMC Canyon Long bed diesel is on its way, and while I don’t know the exact payload, I can guess what it is based upon another users response. Somewhere around 1280#

Hi: splitting_lanes... Where you pack it is as important as what yer packin'. I used to put a lot of stuff in the loft. Now I put the table down and use a poly tarp to put stuff on. IMHO what's ahead of the wheels adds to the pin wt., what's behind them subtracts so to speak.
Since our truck is a "Pavement Prince" short on heft, but lots of umph to pull, most stuff goes in the trailer. I don't like putting gear in the truck interior cause I don't want the leather damaged. We're lucky the trailer has a kitchen sink... We just have to fit everything but... in. You make it work your way!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[splitting_lanes]

We’ll find out for sure in a week or two! So exciting that it’s finally built and in transit.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by escape artist

Hi: splitting_lanes... Where you pack it is as important as what yer packin'. I used to put a lot of stuff in the loft. Now I put the table down and use a poly tarp to put stuff on. IMHO what's ahead of the wheels adds to the pin wt., what's behind them subtracts so to speak.
Since our truck is a "Pavement Prince" short on heft, but lots of umph to pull, most stuff goes in the trailer. I don't like putting gear in the truck interior cause I don't want the leather damaged. We're lucky the trailer has a kitchen sink... We just have to fit everything but... in. You make it work your way!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

This is exactly our plan as what we can put in the truck will be limited by the payload. With Lagun, we do not have to put the table down. Our questions/modification needs are around how to secure what we put in the camper (tie downs etc. and where to install them).

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Be very careful what you take. When my truck (2020 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost) is loaded with our “necessities” of an RV road trip (except for an Xtend & Climb ladder weighing 32 lbs which is nice to have but not necessary), the total weight of passengers and cargo, including 740 lbs of pin weight is 1,699 lbs (scale weight). Since the pillar sticker states 1,937 lbs, I have a 238 lbs leeway. With only 1,280 lbs (or even the 1,390 lbs mentioned in the previous post) you will need to be judicious in what you pack in order not to exceed the Canyon’s cargo weight specifications.

Yes, agreed. It’s just my wife and I, no big dogs or anything, so I don’t think we’ll be much over a thousand