Toyota Tacoma or Toyota Tundra for Escape 21'?

[AKCamper]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The first-generation Ranger was also sold from 1994 to 2010 (with some styling tweaks) as the Mazda B-Series truck. These trucks (both Ranger and B-Series) sold in North America were all built in the U.S.

Before the Ranger, the Ford Courier was a re-badged and slightly restyled Mazda pickup sold by Ford from 1972 to 1982; it was built by Mazda in Japan.

The current Ford Ranger for North America is a modified version of the T6 Ranger designed in Australia; for the North American market it is built in Michigan. Perhaps the Australian origin isn't local enough for some; they might be concerned about the Chevrolet Colorado / GMC Canyon, which started in Thailand (and the diesel engines are still made there), and is built (for North America) in Missouri.

Actually the ford ranger was introduced in 1983 to replace the Ford Courier. I was a Ford mechanic working on both of them. In fact I started working on Fords in 1972 when the Courier was introduced. Replaced many a Courier head gasket. They blew just about any time they were overheated.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AKCamper

Actually the ford ranger was introduced in 1983 to replace the Ford Courier.

Yep, I missed a decade of Rangers! But the point was supposed to be that these "Ford" trucks were never built in Mexico, with Rangers being built in the U.S.

[Shonak]

The 2018 Tacoma towed (Handled) the E21 just fine, the issues is with the 3.5L engine that does not develop useful Horsepower until it is Revving 3500 RPM or more, coupled with the 6 speed transmission, it constantly is down and up shifting even on level highways. We towed from Sumas, Wa. To Ohio. The issue is the engines maximum torque is at 4600 RPM and that’s where it likes to run when high output is required. At low RPM it has no power.
(278 hp @ 6000 rpm, 265 lb.-ft. @ 4600 rpm) The engine derates about 3% per 1000 feet of altitude. This is a loss of 30% of power at 10,000 feet of altitude. It is unpleasant on a long drive to have the engine running at high RPMs most of the time.

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi Sandra,

Congratulations on your new Escape 21 and your pending truck. For the variables stated in your original post (5 people, 500 to 750 lbs of tongue weight, etc.), I think the Tundra would be the better choice. Tow capacity and engine power are important, but I think payload (cargo carrying capacity) is often overlooked in the equation of buying a tow vehicle. Even 1/2 ton pickups can be payload challenged when towing a trailer at half their tow capacity. Keep payload in mind when selecting a tow vehicle (even the Tundra).

Take care.

Happy Travels,

Dean

[advenas]

Originally Posted by DeanCHS1980

Hi Sandra,

Congratulations on your new Escape 21 and your pending truck. For the variables stated in your original post (5 people, 500 to 750 lbs of tongue weight, etc.), I think the Tundra would be the better choice. Tow capacity and engine power are important, but I think payload (cargo carrying capacity) is often overlooked in the equation of buying a tow vehicle. Even 1/2 ton pickups can be payload challenged when towing a trailer at half their tow capacity. Keep payload in mind when selecting a tow vehicle (even the Tundra).

Take care.

Happy Travels,

Dean

I agree Dean. And I might add it's not the everyday towing that's an issue. Often it's the extremes that affect a smaller tow rig such as wind, mountain passes or both. Not to mention bad weather or God forbid an emergency situation. I hit black ice once and went off the road with my 17B. I was very glad I was driving an F250 truck that weighed 2x of my trailer as I think that alone kept a bad situation from being a catastrophe.

[dlakeman]

I owned a Toyota 4Runner (same drive train as Tacoma) when I ordered my 21C. Before taking delivery I did research on this Forum. I listed to Jon Vermilye when he told me the 4Runner would not be the vehicle to tow a 21C. He purchased a Ford F-150, and so did I. I researched the Tundra's because I'm a "Toyota guy". I didn't like the MPG or tow weight capability. I sold my 21C to a couple with a Tacoma. On his way home to Phoenix from Las Vegas they told me they were coming out of Hoover Dam on an uphill grade doing 40MPH at 4500 RPM. Wow! They towed with the Tacoma for a couple months. I upgraded my trailer to a larger one, and therefore I wanted a larger tow vehicle. I called the couple who bought my 21C and asked if they'd be interested in my F-150. Absolutely!! They are now extremely happy because they tow the 21C, and the F-150 barely knows it's towing anything. Not towing I could get 21MPG on the Interstate with the F-150. Towing MPG varied because of road conditions, speed limits, uphill grades, and wind. I still wasn't "stopping at every gas station". Bottom line, purchase a 2019 or newer F-150 because of the 350 turbo boost engine and 10 speed transmission.

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by dlakeman

I owned a Toyota 4Runner (same drive train as Tacoma) when I ordered my 21C. Before taking delivery I did research on this Forum. I listed to Jon Vermilye when he told me the 4Runner would not be the vehicle to tow a 21C. He purchased a Ford F-150, and so did I. I researched the Tundra's because I'm a "Toyota guy". I didn't like the MPG or tow weight capability. I sold my 21C to a couple with a Tacoma. On his way home to Phoenix from Las Vegas they told me they were coming out of Hoover Dam on an uphill grade doing 40MPH at 4500 RPM. Wow! They towed with the Tacoma for a couple months. I upgraded my trailer to a larger one, and therefore I wanted a larger tow vehicle. I called the couple who bought my 21C and asked if they'd be interested in my F-150. Absolutely!! They are now extremely happy because they tow the 21C, and the F-150 barely knows it's towing anything. Not towing I could get 21MPG on the Interstate with the F-150. Towing MPG varied because of road conditions, speed limits, uphill grades, and wind. I still wasn't "stopping at every gas station". Bottom line, purchase a 2019 or newer F-150 because of the 350 turbo boost engine and 10 speed transmission.

I’m glad you have what you like, I’ll stick with what I like-2021 Tundra

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

I’m glad you have what you like, I’ll stick with what I like-2021 Tundra

"No replacement for displacement" comes to mind.......

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

"No replacement for displacement" comes to mind.......

On my way I can drop you off at the mechanics shop, comes to mine…


Glad you’re feeling better, have a good one.

[DanandDaphne]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

We do not put four people in the truck when pulling, unless for short distances at low speeds. Tundras are light in payload capacity as evidenced by only 5 lug nuts on each tire. F-150's have six! They can handle more payload.

Really? They went to 5 lug wheels on later Tundras, that's disappointing. I thought they were all still six lug wheels. I have owned three 4runners, a 93 Pickup, and first gen Tundra and they all have the same six lug spacing on their wheels.

I wouldn't however consider this to be the limiting factor for payload. I owned an older F150 and it had five lug wheels and had over 2000 lbs payload.

It looks like they went back to 6 lug wheels for the 2022 Tundra this is from the Road and Track article that Brian BP posted.

This new third-generation Tundra carries over practically nothing from either the first-generation (2000-2006) or second-generation (2007-2021) trucks except the name. Even the lug nuts have been revised, though there are still six on every wheel.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

"No replacement for displacement" comes to mind.......

And it's still not true.

[Brian B-P]

I missed this comment when it was first posted...

Originally Posted by UncleTim

Tundras are light in payload capacity as evidenced by only 5 lug nuts on each tire. F-150's have six! They can handle more payload.

The number of bolts isn't important by itself; for one thing, bolt size and spacing varies.

My motorhome, on a Ford F53 chassis with 26,000 GVWR, has eight bolts per wheel on a large (225 mm) pitch circle. That doesn't mean that the axles (Dana S130 at the rear, which makes any pickup axle look like a toy) have less capacity than other medium-duty axles with 10 wheel bolts, or the same capacity as lighter-duty axles with 8 bolts on a smaller (170 mm) pitch circle.

Wheel bolt (stud) diameters vary, too, but from light-duty pickups to medium duty trucks probably all have 14 mm now.

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I missed this comment when it was first posted...

The number of bolts isn't important by itself; for one thing, bolt size and spacing varies.

My motorhome, on a Ford F53 chassis with 26,000 GVWR, has eight bolts per wheel on a large (225 mm) pitch circle. That doesn't mean that the axles (Dana S130 at the rear, which makes any pickup axle look like a toy) have less capacity than other medium-duty axles with 10 wheel bolts, or the same capacity as lighter-duty axles with 8 bolts on a smaller (170 mm) pitch circle.

Wheel bolt (stud) diameters vary, too, but from light-duty pickups to medium duty trucks probably all have 14 mm now.

All this who’s got the biggest bolt talk, I just went out and counted.

2013 Tacoma-6

2021 Tundra-5

Not sure if this helps anything but there it is.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

All this who’s got the biggest bolt talk, I just went out and counted.

2013 Tacoma-6

2021 Tundra-5

Not sure if this helps anything but there it is.

Ok, I had to wander out to the garage and look.


2014 Tacoma-6

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

2013 Tacoma-6

2021 Tundra-5

Originally Posted by alanmalk

2014 Tacoma-6

The Tacoma has

• 5-on-4.5" (114.3 mm) bolt pattern in 4X2 up to 2014, and
• 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm) in 4X4 up to 2014 and all variants starting 2015

... with 12 mm diameter studs in all cases.

5-on-4.5" (114.3 mm) with 12 mm studs is the same as many recent compact cars (such as my Mazda 3).
The 4X4's probably don't have the 6-bolt pattern for more strength, only for a larger bolt circle to allow for the larger centre bore needed for the bulky hubs of traditional 4X4 front axles.

The Tundra has

• 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm) with 12 mm studs in the first generation (up to 2006), and
• 5-on-150 mm with 14 mm studs in 2007-2021
• apparently 6 bolt, perhaps 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm), probably with 14 mm studs, for 2022

I would rather have five 14 mm studs on a 150 mm circle than six 12 mm studs on a 139.7 mm circle. Toyota introduced this change with the second generation to provide more strength with less complexity and cost than the traditional small truck 6-bolt pattern (which is also typically used for trailer axles one step above the 3500 pound weight rating). The change was unpopular, presumably because consumers - and especially truck buyers - are more interested in simplistic stats (bolt count) than the actual performance of the design.

I'm all for comparing actual specs to understand the difference between vehicles, but taking one value (the number of wheel studs) out of the context of the other relevant information (bolt circle and stud diameter) isn't productive.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The Tacoma has

• 5-on-4.5" (114.3 mm) bolt pattern in 4X2 up to 2014, and
• 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm) in 4X4 up to 2014 and all variants starting 2015

... with 12 mm diameter studs in all cases.

FWIW, in the mid 2000s, Tacomas had a "Prerunner" version which was a 2WD that looked like the 4x4 and had hte larger wheels. so its a bit more complicated. IIRC, my Tacoma (TRD Offroad 4x4) was a 2008, and the prerunners existed both before and after that date... They even sold RWD Prerunners with the TRD OffRoad package, which IMHO is pretty silly.

Those Tacoma 4x4 TRD's had a signficantly larger wheel size than the truck's size, IIRC, mine was a 265/70R16, which is nearly as large as the 265/75R16 on my F250 4x4 (of course, the Tacoma stock tires were considerably lighter load rating than the F250s)

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The Tacoma has

• 5-on-4.5" (114.3 mm) bolt pattern in 4X2 up to 2014, and
• 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm) in 4X4 up to 2014 and all variants starting 2015

... with 12 mm diameter studs in all cases.

5-on-4.5" (114.3 mm) with 12 mm studs is the same as many recent compact cars (such as my Mazda 3).
The 4X4's probably don't have the 6-bolt pattern for more strength, only for a larger bolt circle to allow for the larger centre bore needed for the bulky hubs of traditional 4X4 front axles.

The Tundra has

• 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm) with 12 mm studs in the first generation (up to 2006), and
• 5-on-150 mm with 14 mm studs in 2007-2021
• apparently 6 bolt, perhaps 6-on-5.5" (139.7 mm), probably with 14 mm studs, for 2022

I would rather have five 14 mm studs on a 150 mm circle than six 12 mm studs on a 139.7 mm circle. Toyota introduced this change with the second generation to provide more strength with less complexity and cost than the traditional small truck 6-bolt pattern (which is also typically used for trailer axles one step above the 3500 pound weight rating). The change was unpopular, presumably because consumers - and especially truck buyers - are more interested in simplistic stats (bolt count) than the actual performance of the design.

I'm all for comparing actual specs to understand the difference between vehicles, but taking one value (the number of wheel studs) out of the context of the other relevant information (bolt circle and stud diameter) isn't productive.

Taking things a bit outa context…

We just got to to thinking about the number of bolts on those vehicles getting discussed and had those vehicles feet away.

While I do find minute details important and am very impressed with the information many provide, and it can be very helpful-I’m just not that into it.

I and many others are happy with our trucks and are well aware of not loading things up like we are the Beverly Hillbilly’s.

We are safe and not having problems.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

They even sold RWD Prerunners with the TRD OffRoad package, which IMHO is pretty silly.

Technically speaking, the word "prerunner" refers to a vehicle that is used to pre-run an off-road racecourse. Most racers have a separate vehicle, similar in build to their race vehicle, that they use to scout the condition of the course prior to the race.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo

Taking things a bit outa context…

We just got to to thinking about the number of bolts on those vehicles getting discussed and had those vehicles feet away.

While I do find minute details important and am very impressed with the information many provide, and it can be very helpful-I’m just not that into it.
....
We are safe and not having problems.

Of course you're safe, because vehicle designers do consider the details. It's fine if someone is not interested in the details, but that person shouldn't try to assess the capability of a vehicle by counting wheel nuts.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

FWIW, in the mid 2000s, Tacomas had a "Prerunner" version which was a 2WD that looked like the 4x4 and had hte larger wheels. so its a bit more complicated. IIRC, my Tacoma (TRD Offroad 4x4) was a 2008, and the prerunners existed both before and after that date... They even sold RWD Prerunners with the TRD OffRoad package, which IMHO is pretty silly.

Good catch - Prerunners had 4X4 suspension and even wheels, but not the actual 4X4 powertrain. Still the old 6x5.5-M12 setup, weak compared to the Tundra 5-bolt.

Off-road truck racing used 4X2 at the time, so those actual prerunners (which Glenn explained) were 4X2, and so were Tacoma Prerunners.