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Old 01-29-2015, 02:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Art,
Did you even consider the Andersen Hitch, it weighs 50% less than yours and should provide the same benefits of no sway and w/d. Plus it's a lot less expensive. Andersen Manufacturing Inc.
I've used traditional w/d set ups and I'm on my second Andersen set up, sold the first with my first Escape.
My primary influence was the "How to tow safely" guide from rv.org, a paid membership organization. (Their evaluation of trailer quality led me to fiberglass trailers and Escape.) J.D. Gallant discusses sway control by friction on most sway control hitches, which he finds to be mostly ineffective. He find that articulating hitches, like the PullRite and the Hensley reduces the risk of an accident caused by sway to nearly zero, perhaps not as good as a fifth wheel, but definitely superior to a fixed-ball hitch. He adds that statistics from the NHTSA show that accidents involving towing vehicles exceed the number of accidents involving non-towing vehicles. (I remember another figure that towing doubles the probability of being in an accident, but I couldn't find the quote while writing.) With that background, I didn't begrudge spending extra for the safety of a Hensley hitch. (Gallant didn't discuss hitch weight, other than it is essential to keep the total tongue weight in the range of 8-12% of the gross trailer weight (most places I read 10-15%, and Gallant says 15% is fine if your vehicle and hitch are rated for it).

I looked at the Anderson, after finding it an option on Escapes. I concluded that it was an above average quality hitch, but that it appeared to use friction for sway control. Gallant didn't specifically mention Andersen hitches, but he concluded that friction was not very effective. (The friction is supposed to make the trailer plus tow vehicle act as one unit when hit with bow waves or cross wind.) If it was high enough to damp sway on freeways, it was too high for curvy back roads because it was too hard to turn. The Hensley doesn't bend when the trailer is hit by cross winds, but does when the tow vehicle turns.

I didn't query this forum before buying a Hensley cub. Perhaps I would have been persuaded that there have been no sway-caused accidents with Escapes, and that I didn't need the extra safety of a Hensley. I have observed that Trailer Life Magazine reviews occasionally violate Gallant's minimum wheelbase vs trailer length requirement, and they report no problems. My conclusion from that is that problems are unlikely under normal conditions, but when abnormal conditions are encountered (for example, gravel on pavement just as a large truck passes) then maximizing the towing safety in as many ways as possible can pay off.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:28 PM   #22
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We will be able to share experiences...
We are buying a 21 and pulling it with a Grand Cherokee 4WD Summit Diesel with the variable air suspension. We are planning on the Anderson hitch. Jeep does require a weight distribution hitch on the GC if the trailer weight exceeds 3500 pounds, so we have to make one of these choices.
We are supposed to get our trailer at the end of May, so stay tuned!
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:43 PM   #23
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Thanks for the thoughtful narrative of why you chose the Hensley and agree that J.D. Gallant's in depth article How To Tow Safely is an excellent resource and all would benefit from reading it:

http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/mi...sion%25202.pdf
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Art M. View Post
J.D. Gallant discusses sway control by friction on most sway control hitches, which he finds to be mostly ineffective.
That all makes sense - unless you understand something about oscillating systems. Any trailer will sway (oscillate in yaw) under the right conditions, and damping the system with friction is a perfectly valid way to address that - in fact, damping is essentially the only way without either changing the fundamental geometry of the trailer or preventing the rig from steering around a corner (although a fluid damper like a suspension shock absorber would be better than friction).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art M. View Post
I looked at the Anderson, after finding it an option on Escapes. I concluded that it was an above average quality hitch, but that it appeared to use friction for sway control.
The Andersen No-Sway WD hitch certainly does use friction. It uses it in a particularly effective way (compared to other WD hitches with intentional friction for sway control), but the design carries the unfortunate consequence of pushing the coupler against the ball with a high load in an abnormal direction.

In Europe, where they tow trailers which tend to be quite heavy in relation to the tow vehicle, and they use relatively low tongue weight in proportion to trailer weight, friction is used very widely and effectively to damp sway. The euro hardware typically works by clamping pads against the tow ball so it won't work with our stud-mounted balls, but the damping effect is still valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art M. View Post
(The friction is supposed to make the trailer plus tow vehicle act as one unit when hit with bow waves or cross wind.) If it was high enough to damp sway on freeways, it was too high for curvy back roads because it was too hard to turn.
No, that's not how frictional damping works, any more than a suspension damper (shock absorber) works by locking the suspension in one position until overcome by a big enough bump. On the other hand, the Reese Dual Cam does have a component (the cam) that works essentially that way.

The cheap generic friction bar devices are difficult to adjust properly, so the effect probably is that they are either too loose to be effective, or so tight they fight turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art M. View Post
The Hensley doesn't bend when the trailer is hit by cross winds, but does when the tow vehicle turns.
Although Hensley Mfg company and its spin-off (ProPride) claim this, I don't see how this can correspond to physical reality. It's just a four-bar linkage, and it is not an over-centre mechanism or high-friction wedge (like a worm gear), so there's no reason it wouldn't be entirely reversible. The Hensley doesn't "know" the difference between cross-wind and a turn.
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Old 01-30-2015, 12:56 AM   #25
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... J.D. Gallant's in depth article How To Tow Safely...
This is not just an article, it is a copyrighted publication which the author sells (through rv.net). Someone named Matt Slaga runs slaga.net. I don't know who he is but it does not appear that he has any right to distribute this material. I would be cautious about downloading anything from this sort of site.

My guess is that Social Knowledge would not endorse linking to Slaga's site.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:14 AM   #26
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Not exactly sure what you're saying here Brian. Are you are suggesting it is wrong to provide a link without permission? If so search "can I provide a link to another website without permission".



https://lorelle.wordpress.com/2006/0...eones-content/

Many other links on this topic as well.

Edit: If there is concern about this site being safe to view see:
http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/d...site=slaga.net
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:38 AM   #27
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There is nothing illegal with using a link, to an article or even a photograph. It is illegal to actually copy and post the file if it is copyrighted. In this case Rossue did nothing wrong, but the site he linked to certainly may have. A really grey area on the internet. I have a few professional photographer friends that constantly are dealing with photo theft.
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Old 01-30-2015, 12:18 PM   #28
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This is taking a lot more time and attention than I wanted, but to address the issues raised... until (with any luck) all the relevant material gets deleted from this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Not exactly sure what you're saying here Brian. Are you are suggesting it is wrong to provide a link without permission? If so search "can I provide a link to another website without permission".

https://lorelle.wordpress.com/2006/0...eones-content/
No, the violation of intellectual property rights which concerns me is not in the link here, it is in the posting of copyrighted content by the other site. I'll believe you that linking to the other site is legal (I didn't search that because that's not the issue), but it would be surprising to me if any responsible publisher encouraged the unauthorized dissemination of copyrighted material by linking to it.

This a bit like a kid stealing a case of beer from a store, and everybody else saying "hey, I'm not the one that stole it"... while drinking a stolen bottle. A more direct equivalent would be if someone got a copy of a bunch of ebooks which are sold by Amazon, and then just posted them for anyone to take without paying.

Of course I agree that we can all link to that guy's site; it is the content there which is the concern. What if this guy posted kiddie porn - would it be okay to link to it from this forum? My guess is "no"... and I do understand that this is much less serious!

Ross, I assume that you just hadn't noticed that the book was not offered by the copyright owner (the author) for free distribution. Sorry if my post appeared critical of you, as that was not my intention - I just don't think the link belongs here (or anywhere).

This is essentially what Jim just posted, but with more explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
If there is concern about this site being safe to view see:
Google Safe Browsing diagnostic page for slaga.net
Good idea to check
Matt Slaga's site appears to be just too unimportant to have attracted hackers, and Slaga himself may be just clueless rather than malicious. To me, it's still the internet equivalent to a neighborhood to avoid.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:09 PM   #29
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Ok, did some research on this- searched "can i provide a link to another website without permission". I just don't want people to get gun shy about participating and sharing ideas.

From Jennifer Kyrnin, Web Design/HTML Expert:
"
Web Links and the Law

"Because the act of linking to a site does not imply ownership or endorsement, there is no reason you would need to ask permission to link to a site that is publically accessible. For example, if you found a site URL through a search engine, then linking to it shouldn't have legal ramifications. There have been one or two cases in the United States that imply that the act of linking without permission is legally actionable, but these have been overturned everytime they come up."

Let's face it- if it was a porn site don't you think the FBI would've shut it down already?
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Old 01-30-2015, 11:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Ok, did some research on this- searched "can i provide a link to another website without permission". I just don't want people to get gun shy about participating and sharing ideas.
As a volunteer webmaster for a number of local sites, I find it an odd concept that I would object to being linked to, or having my URL published. I'm going to a fair amount of trouble to present information to the public, and the more exposure - the better. In the case of sensitive information that is not intended for the public I put it in a password protected area. But that said, if I am adding a link to someone's personal page I will ask permission first. But not for sites (cities, universities, corporations, etc.) who are clearly trying to broadcast information.

"Deep" linking, where the linked URL skips past the home page (and presumably advertising that provides an income to the web site) is not a friendly thing to do. I have heard of legal actions being taken against deep linkers but don't recall the outcome.

My opinions ...

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Old 01-31-2015, 04:26 PM   #31
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Let's face it- if it was a porn site don't you think the FBI would've shut it down already?
That's hilarious: the idea that there are no bad things on the internet because someone would have shut them down - especially a porn site! (which I used as an extreme example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanmalk View Post
As a volunteer webmaster for a number of local sites, I find it an odd concept that I would object to being linked to, or having my URL published.
I thought I was very clear, but apparently not. I assume Matt Slaga doesn't mind people linking to his stolen copy of copyrighted material - I don't care about him and that's not the issue at all.

Since this discussion has been going on for a couple of days and no moderator or administrator has expressed an opinion or otherwise taken action, I assume that members of this forum are free to link to anything they want. Sorry for the sidetrack.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:07 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Since this discussion has been going on for a couple of days and no moderator or administrator has expressed an opinion or otherwise taken action, I assume that members of this forum are free to link to anything they want. Sorry for the sidetrack.
I've been reading and following along. I wouldn't say you are free to link to anything you want... that's a stretch. But, as long as it could be considered trailer/camping related in some fashion, you should be fine.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:15 PM   #33
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Don't try linking to extra large ladies under-garments though.
I would think the person who would be liable is the person running the site that copied and posted the copyright material.
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Old 02-01-2015, 12:19 AM   #34
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Found these comments about the Hensley hitch on another site.

"Be forewarned, the hensley hitch when in the pulling mode is as they say is in a locked position however with exhaust braking or tranny down shifting, the locking mechanics will unlock, therefore the hitch is now able to swing 6 inches either side of the tow ball center line, that means you have a possible 10,000# of trailer flipping from side to side.
Hensles answer to this is the trailer brakes must always come on before the truck brakes do the trailer has to always be pulling back to prevent unlatching of the hitch, meaning that you are not to use your tranny braking system period.

First hand experience,
I was test driving a rig set up by the hensley people, it started to rain drove to the next cloverleaf the tranny downshifted on a curve at 30mph felt the back end slip sideways (caused by the unlatching of the hitch), you do not want this happening at 55mph."

If this is correct it would sure make me think twice before getting a Hensley hitch.
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:08 PM   #35
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Please tell me how you like the grand cherokee, thinking that is the TV we will buy for our 21 due in May
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Old 10-18-2015, 05:40 PM   #36
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Grand Cherokee as Tow Vehicle

We're happy with the diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee. Despite our earlier intentions, at the last minute we decided to get the air suspension, which I think ensures a level ride whether or not we use a weight-distribution hitch.

With the Hensley hitch, we had no problems with sway from passing trucks in opposite directions on 2-lane or same direction on 4 lane and up.

Following cpaharley2008's suggestion, we bought an inexpensive ball hitch, then tried towing the 21' Escape without any weight distribution or sway control; but hedged our bets by carrying the Hensley in the JGC so we could reinstall it if problems arose. None did; we passed trucks on both 2 lane and 4 lane roads with no noticeable effects; so we couldn't tell the difference in towing with or without the Hensley. I think this speaks favorably of the Jeep as well as the tow ability of the 21' Escape.

We then returned the Hensley for a refund, planning to get the Andersen – just before Reace announced that they were not going to continue to install Andersen hitches – bummer. I really liked the design of the Andersen, and others who I respect also thought it a good design; but it appears to be higher maintenance than most hitches.

My current thinking is take Reace's recommendation of the Fastway E2, but get the same company's American built Equalizer for a little more money to pay for more peace of mind. The manufacturer's online questionnaire recommends somewhere between the Equalizer 90-00-0600 and the 90-00-1000, the latter allows more weight in the JGC behind the rear axle. I plan to contact Equalizer people for their recommendations before buying.

The only thing we haven't enjoyed in towing is the jerking as the Jeep and trailer go over bumps at different times. However, our instructor at the Valley Driving School thought it felt normal. We didn't notice any difference with or without the Hensley.

We have about 1200 miles of experience towing with the JGC. It's nice to drive, we have no complaints. We have about 3500 miles total, it's nice to drive when not towing too. We haven't begun to use the torque we have available with the diesel, but suspect that since it has high torque at low rpm, we're probably much happier towing than we would be with a gas-V6, and we're enjoying the better fuel economy with diesel, especially compared with the nearly as high torque V8.
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Old 10-19-2015, 11:37 AM   #37
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Thanks, I think we have decided on the JGC Overland, now to decide whether we want V6 or V8....many think the V8 is over kill, we seem to have a hard time deciding this one and we are excited about the car....will prob sell my forester...we were looking at durangos and they are tanks...happy to have choices! Look forward to joining the ETI fam in May.
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:28 PM   #38
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I think the v-6 may struggle with the 21 whereas the v-8 would not. Plus you may get better gas towing with the v-8 since it will pull at a lower rpm. I really like the new 8 speed auto.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:31 PM   #39
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Thank you... we are going with the V8 Grand Cherokee...appreciate your input and experience. we have been to the dodge dealer twice to drive Durango and Grand Cherokee and they keep telling us we don't need V8.....we just aren't convinced, I think you helped push us over the edge..love the clarity!!
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Old 10-19-2015, 04:01 PM   #40
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21 tow vehicle

If Jim's comments didn't push you over the edge, we have a 2011 jeep gc that towed our 19 and now the 21. We love it. Hemi V8 that will accelerate the 4200# trailer from 0 to 70 in the length of an on ramp when needed and give 13 to 15 mpg towing at speed limits plus. The GC now has 86000 miles, 1/2 towing and 1/2 around town pushing 18+ MPG. When it reaches 95000, we will sell and include ext warranty and probably buy another GC. We have the 5 speed trans, Jim has the 8 speed that should bump the mileage.
We still get to the east bay once in a while but camping spots are limited. The Alameda fair grounds are so-so, Lake Chabot camp ground on the hill is nice and quiet except for the gun range on week ends but we do need to return once every few years, Nancy was born in Oakland, raised in Castro Valley and we lived in P-town for 10 years. Have fun with your new trailer.
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