Lithium Batteries?? VS dual 6 volts

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

no sure who told you that. But the 21 NE's they been selling out of inventory have the batteries in the front storage box.I also confirmed this when i was debating weather to change my build from a 19 to a 21 NE

I think Perry was referring to the upcoming 23 when he was speaking about battery location

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I think Perry was referring to the upcoming 23 when he was speaking about battery location

that makes sense sorry Perry. there so many models now its hard to keep up.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

that makes sense sorry Perry. there so many models now its hard to keep up.

I was talking about the 23, but it seems more Escapes have their batteries out in the cold than inside. Obviously I didn't know what I was talking about. Not the first time!

For the style of camping we enjoy, I'd be asking Escape to put the batteries inside so lithium will function better in cold weather.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

The other day, when I walked up to the 5.0 in our seasonal site, the answer was clear.

We had the same problem in Chiricahua National Monument, and then add tree cover. Luckily while we were there twice last winter, once was for 5 days and the other four nights, we used the Martin Catalytic heater every night to conserve the battery. The second time we had just received the Renogy portable, but found out the second 20' wire set to the portable we incorrectly made, so despite 15' of usable wire we barely got any solar. Of course the clear spot for our portable was less than 10' away. We now have 45' of wire (three 15' pieces) so hopefully that won't happen again.

Yes, our campsite is kind of ratty in the spring, but right now where else can we camp?

See the problem yet? Will one more picture be needed?

Enjoy,

Perry

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

The other day, when I walked up to the 5.0 in our seasonal site, the answer was clear.

See the problem yet? Will one more picture be needed?

Shading on the solar panel from the AC unit?

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Shading on the solar panel from the AC unit?

We Have A Winner!!!

Just show up to our campsite and you'll get a free beer!

The picture shown really doesn't show very well how the AC unit will shade the panel in January. The panel is sloped 5 or so degrees away from a south sun and the AC unit is actually higher and closer in relationship to the panel than appears in the picture, both because of the sloping roof.

We had camped over a year and 200 nights with our roof panel providing all the power we needed, until Death Valley and Chiricahua Monument. We now have the Renogy portable underneath the top step in our 5.0, and Murphy's Law says we'll never need to use it.

Enjoy,

Perry

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

You got my wheels turning. How many AH would it take to rune the mini split for 2 hours? this would be a great boondocking rig

I'll try to answer this absent perfect data...hoping the electrical gurus will weigh in....
16 SEER 9,000 BTU Fujitsu 9RL2 mini-split: 830W (maximum at full cooling)
2000W Inverter inefficiency penalty: 10% (assumed)
Total load: 915W
Resting voltage of lithium:~13V (without sag under load)
Running amps: 915W/13V= 70A
Running for 1 hour: 70 AH (worst case) (one 100AH battery)
Running for 2 hours: 140 AH (worst case) (two 100AH batteries)
Batteries drawn down 70%

Since this would be at night this assumes no other meaningful simultaneous draw and no solar input to/from the batteries.

As I understand this is only possible to attempt because lithium can take the constant, high amp draw without voltage sag and without the Peukert effect causing the limitations as with lead acid technology (as the rate of discharge increases, the battery's available capacity decreases). Also they can be drawn down 90% +/- without issue.

Given the mini-split is an inverter compressor system that only runs as hard as it needs the calculation above is really a conservative worst case. Once the unit gets closer to set point the unit will wind down and draw a much lower amount. Then it just about idles to maintain set point. When the weather is warm I would like to run my mini-split with a Kill-A-Watt meter attached to get a true profile of power usage. I am cautiously optimistic that I may be able to squeak out 2 hours of run time on one 100AH battery. I need to go back and find it but I believe AM solar said a typical 15,000 BTU rooftop unit (constant speed compressor) can run for ~1hr on one 100AH lithium battery. Seems unlikely but they do a lot of testing so that is making me hopeful I can double that with my smaller and much more efficient mini-split. So with two 100 AH batteries I could get maybe 4+ hours run time.

The next issue is getting the amp-hours back in the next day. The good news is lithium can take a high charge rate so getting recharged should be faster than lead acid. Just not sure how. If a quiet generator (Honda EU2000i or equivalent) only needs to run for a few hours and my Progressive Dynamics PD 4655L Wildkat charger can actually supply 55A that is a compelling choice. Of course solar would be ideal but after you spend big bucks to load up the roof what if you are in northern latitudes, have tree cover, etc.

Obviously the scenario above would only be for a situation where you didn't have shore power, could run a generator during the day but not at night. This might a be situation typical of some state parks.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I'll try to answer this absent perfect data...hoping the electrical gurus will weigh in....
16 SEER 9,000 BTU Fujitsu 9RL2 mini-split: 830W (maximum at full cooling)
2000W Inverter inefficiency penalty: 10% (assumed)
Total load: 915W
Resting voltage of lithium:~13V (without sag under load)
Running amps: 915W/13V= 70A
Running for 1 hour: 70 AH (worst case) (one 100AH battery)
Running for 2 hours: 140 AH (worst case) (two 100AH batteries)
Batteries drawn down 70%

Since this would be at night this assumes no other meaningful simultaneous draw and no solar input to/from the batteries.

As I understand this is only possible to attempt because lithium can take the constant, high amp draw without voltage sag and without the Peukert effect causing the limitations as with lead acid technology (as the rate of discharge increases, the battery's available capacity decreases). Also they can be drawn down 90% +/- without issue.

Given the mini-split is an inverter compressor system that only runs as hard as it needs the calculation above is really a conservative worst case. Once the unit gets closer to set point the unit will wind down and draw a much lower amount. Then it just about idles to maintain set point. When the weather is warm I would like to run my mini-split with a Kill-A-Watt meter attached to get a true profile of power usage. I am cautiously optimistic that I may be able to squeak out 2 hours of run time on one 100AH battery. I need to go back and find it but I believe AM solar said a typical 15,000 BTU rooftop unit (constant speed compressor) can run for ~1hr on one 100AH lithium battery. Seems unlikely but they do a lot of testing so that is making me hopeful I can double that with my smaller and much more efficient mini-split. So with two 100 AH batteries I could get maybe 4+ hours run time.

The next issue is getting the amp-hours back in the next day. The good news is lithium can take a high charge rate so getting recharged should be faster than lead acid. Just not sure how. If a quiet generator (Honda EU2000i or equivalent) only needs to run for a few hours and my Progressive Dynamics PD 4655L Wildkat charger can actually supply 55A that is a compelling choice. Of course solar would be ideal but after you spend big bucks to load up the roof what if you are in northern latitudes, have tree cover, etc.

Obviously the scenario above would only be for a situation where you didn't have shore power, could run a generator during the day but not at night. This might a be situation typical of some state parks.

I figured you have run the numbers. I find this very interesting .each year we get more tech to get us close to having no shore power

[Effie]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

The other day, when I walked up to the 5.0 in our seasonal site, the answer was clear.

Perry, we visited Death Valley just after you; we got there on January 15. I have four 80w panels in the back of my e19 and two will get partly shaded if the trailer is pointing the “wrong” way in the winter months. I didn’t keep tab on power usage (or the orientation of the trailer)but we do have a Nespresso coffee maker and a toaster that we use a lot and we needed the furnace running every night. Still, the batteries always came back to full before the end of the day. My friend with three working (four panels, one failed) 100w panels on his Airstream was not doing well, he needed to top the batteries with a generator every day. His furnace consumes about double the power of the one in the Escape and he is complaining that the Airstream is not well insulated, of course at 25’ there’s more space to heat.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Effie

Perry, we visited Death Valley just after you; we got there on January 15. I have four 80w panels in the back of my e19 and two will get partly shaded if the trailer is pointing the “wrong” way in the winter months. I didn’t keep tab on power usage (or the orientation of the trailer)but we do have a Nespresso coffee maker and a toaster that we use a lot and we needed the furnace running every night. Still, the batteries always came back to full before the end of the day. My friend with three working (four panels, one failed) 100w panels on his Airstream was not doing well, he needed to top the batteries with a generator every day. His furnace consumes about double the power of the one in the Escape and he is complaining that the Airstream is not well insulated, of course at 25’ there’s more space to heat.

The roof on your 19 is flat so the AC isn't as high in retationship and you have two panels in the sun. We only have one and it's in the shade of the AC most of the time and at a bad angle.

With our portable we're not worrying any more.

Enjoy,

Perry

[rubicon327]

Great video on lithium batteries by AM Solar

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfugog...ature=emb_logo

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I am cautiously optimistic that I may be able to squeak out 2 hours of run time on one 100AH battery. I need to go back and find it but I believe AM solar said a typical 15,000 BTU rooftop unit (constant speed compressor) can run for ~1hr on one 100AH lithium battery. Seems unlikely but they do a lot of testing so that is making me hopeful I can double that with my smaller and much more efficient mini-split. So with two 100 AH batteries I could get maybe 4+ hours run time.

Well I knew it was too good to be true. Here is what AM Solar actually says: “If your goal is to run an air conditioner in your Trailer or RV with your lithium batteries, know that one fully charged 200Ah lithium battery will give you about one hour of run time on a typical 15,000 BTU air conditioner, assuming no other loads.” I had incorrectly said 100AH above. So I’m back somewhere closer to my original calculation of 2+ hours on 200AH of batteries with my mini-split. Maybe closer to 3 hours with the inverter compressor depending on conditions and equipment duty cycle. Any more than that seems improbable while trying to keep at least 10-20% charge in the batteries.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Great video on lithium batteries by AM Solar

Good video

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Well I knew it was too good to be true. Here is what AM Solar actually says: “If your goal is to run an air conditioner in your Trailer or RV with your lithium batteries, know that one fully charged 200Ah lithium battery will give you about one hour of run time on a typical 15,000 BTU air conditioner, assuming no other loads.” I had incorrectly said 100AH above. So I’m back somewhere closer to my original calculation of 2+ hours on 200AH of batteries with my mini-split. Maybe closer to 3 hours with the inverter compressor depending on conditions and equipment duty cycle. Any more than that seems improbable while trying to keep at least 10-20% charge in the batteries.

he covers air late in the late in this video 10.00

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

he covers air late in the late in this video 10.00

Which video?

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Which video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLi-sujpFZs

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Good video

I forgot to mention that the video is older and does not highlight Battle Born as one of their brands. It is now one of their main offerings as you can see on their website.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Thanks. I can't believe he says some people spend upwards of $50,000 to be able to run air conditioning off grid. What?!

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Thanks. I can't believe he says some people spend upwards of $50,000 to be able to run air conditioning off grid. What?!

ya when he said 50,000 I thought wow I going back to the Honda 2000 plan. LOL


I just love solar after the install There is very little maintenance

[John in Santa Cruz]

re: lead acid discharge percentages.... if you look at the typical lead-acid deep cycle battery discharge vs charge cycle table, its fairly linear from hardly any discharge down to 50%.... if you get 500 cycles at 50% discharge rate, you probably get around 1000 cycles at 25% discharge, which is the same total amount of power used.

now, they tend to fall off when you go much /deeper/ than 50% discharge, like if you run 75% discharge over and over, you will get less than 250 cycles, maybe 200 cycles, and if you go 90% discharge, you'll get considerably less than 100 cycles.

lead acid batteries ideally are always stored fully charged, the longer you leave one partially discharged, the worse it will be off in the long run.


another thing, Amp*hours (AH) are a bit fuzzy. batteries are typically rated in AH at a 20 hour discharge rate, and have more or less power if you discharge them faster or slower than that.