Lithium Batteries?? VS dual 6 volts

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by emers382

So my guess (#34) Perry was pretty close. I didn't even think of shading from the AC. Why would you even position the trailer so it faced south (solar facing north) unless you had no choice? Now if you were in Australia solar to the north would be perfect!

If I don't have power I try to find a site to face the solar south or west. And if I suspect that I won't have enough on the solar likely because of shade I can always add my portable panel with 15 foot cord. What you need is a set up like Jon's where he can face his panels pretty well anywhere he likes.

In some places you have no choice.

Death Valley and Chirichaua National Monument are booked solid in the winter and internet campground maps are not necessarily orientated north/south or give an idea where/when the sun will on your panel. In the case of Death Valley we knew there were no trees and never gave a thought that the AC unit would shade the panel. Very few sites in Chirichaua have any sun and ours had literally none, despite the panel facing the south. Both sites required a portable (and long wiring in Chirichaua), since we stayed more than 4 days putting pressure on our available battery amps.

We have added a 100 watt Renogy panel, 45' of wire, and a separate Victron Smartsolar 100/20 controller because of our winter experiences. We'd been camping about 210 nights on the road, never needing more power than our 170 watt GoPro panel/controller provided, until we hit Death Valley. Luckily after adding access to the top step in our 5.0, the Renogy panel fits underneath the step out of the way.

We have nearly $90,000 invested in our tug and camper. In the first year and a half owning our 5.0, we camped 270 nights on the road, and numerous nights in our seasonal campsite eight tenths of a mile from our condo. We been camping all our lives, so another $400 of discretionary money was needed and justified.

Enjoy,

Perry

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

how do you guys handle when your on shore power for a long period of time or camper is parked for long periods . reading more about Lithium it seems to be the opposite of lead acid and don't like to be at full charge for long. storing this at full charge will shorten the life span. so from what i understand is if you put in storage you should discharge to 50%. my camper sits a lot and with lead acid i always just let the solar controller do the work. from what i reading if i do that with lithium it will shortening the life a lot

I see some people building these batteries any one do this?
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/di...eo-series.html

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

reading more about Lithium it seems to be the opposite of lead acid and don't like to be at full charge for long. storing this at full charge will shorten the life span. so from what i understand is if you put in storage you should discharge to 50%.

I can see not wanting to leave the battery on charge, but discharging (to 50% or any other level) seems like a bad idea, since overly discharging (due to self-discharge during storage) any lithium-ion cell is a serious problem. I would just disconnect from the charge and leave the battery... preferably with occasional monitoring to make sure that they don't get too low. A sensible battery management system would take care of this (disconnecting for storage and re-starting charging if required), but the system in a typical drop-in replacement unit (Battle Born or whatever) isn't very sophisticated.

Modern electric cars all use lithium-ion batteries (although not the LiFePO4 chemistry of these RV units), and I'm sure that none of them are supposed to be half-discharged before parking them. The problem that some of these cars have had is being parked with very little charge and running down too much before being charged again.

[hotfishtacos]

Maximum solar charge levels can be achieved when you have long shadows in late fall...with adjustable panel mounts. Note the rear solar panel is moved back to eliminate Air Conditioner shadows.



(4) 6 volt flooded batteries fully topped off by 10:00 Am

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I can see not wanting to leave the battery on charge, but discharging (to 50% or any other level) seems like a bad idea, since overly discharging (due to self-discharge during storage) any lithium-ion cell is a serious problem. I would just disconnect from the charge and leave the battery... preferably with occasional monitoring to make sure that they don't get too low. A sensible battery management system would take care of this (disconnecting for storage and re-starting charging if required), but the system in a typical drop-in replacement unit (Battle Born or whatever) isn't very sophisticated.

Modern electric cars all use lithium-ion batteries (although not the LiFePO4 chemistry of these RV units), and I'm sure that none of them are supposed to be half-discharged before parking them. The problem that some of these cars have had is being parked with very little charge and running down too much before being charged again.

Battleborn suggests discharging the batteries to 80% if you are going to store them on at least one of their forum posts. I did this for a month & according to my battery monitor, the self discharge was .1V. The self discharge of LiFePO batteries is so small that they can be stored for long periods - I suspect close to a year without needing a charge.

In a discussion with Battleborn when I was purchasing my batteries, it was suggested that storing the battery fully charged was OK, but not to keep it on a charger at 14.4V - 14.6V for long periods (ie weeks).

In general, if you are using them, bringing them to a full charge each day is good, and provides the 14.6V or so necessary to initiate balancing of the individual cells, but keeping them at 14.6V will shorten life.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

In a discussion with Battleborn when I was purchasing my batteries, it was suggested that storing the battery fully charged was OK, but not to keep it on a charger at 14.4V - 14.6V for long periods (ie weeks).

In general, if you are using them, bringing them to a full charge each day is good, and provides the 14.6V or so necessary to initiate balancing of the individual cells, but keeping them at 14.6V will shorten life.

That makes sense to me. A proper charging system (and the BMS is part of that) for a lithium battery charges then stops... it doesn't keep trying to charge.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

I am looking at lithium batteries . I stayed away from them due to cost.I don't know that much about them but doing some reading they have some major advantages over lead acid .I had a few questions on them


1. Is it possible to get the same usable amp hours out of one 100ah lithium as you would with the duel 6 volts?
2. If you started with one 100ah lithium could you add another a few years down the road?I know this is a problem with lead acid they should be the same age when wired together.
3. besides cost is there any disadvantages to the lithium?
4. as i understand it it would be safe to have these inside the trailer ?

I think you are buying new. I'm buying new also. Here's my take. Escape's Duel 6 Volt Battery option is reasonably priced. The will last at least a couple of years. After a couple of years, battery technology will have advanced or existing battery technology will be lower in price. So, I'm getting the Duel 6 Volt Battery option now, and when I need to replace them I'll evaluate LiFePO4 or other battery options at that time.

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Battleborn suggests discharging the batteries to 80% if you are going to store them on at least one of their forum posts.
...
In a discussion with Battleborn when I was purchasing my batteries, it was suggested that storing the battery fully charged was OK, but not to keep it on a charger at 14.4V - 14.6V for long periods (ie weeks).

Hmm, I missed this. So should I assume that the batteries should be disconnected from the solar panels when the trailer is stored outside?

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

The more i understand these lithium batteries . They may be a Best choice in my system. if i go this way I really don't want the cost of another converter. will the WF-8955 do damage to these batteries? or is the problem just getting them charged to a 100%.


In my case I will have the solar and victron mppt controller . most the time my solar controller would do the charging and can be set correct charging specs .
There is only two cases i would need to use the converter . while boon docking and no sun and using generator to get battery up.while stopping on road at campsite to recharge.


in the past using AGM battery i put a switch to disconnect the charging line from the converter so while on shore power i could just run things from converter. But looking over the spec it does not look the the wfco can produce any damaging voltage regardless of what charge mode it is in

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

The more i understand these lithium batteries . They may be a Best choice in my system. if i go this way I really don't want the cost of another converter. will the WF-8955 do damage to these batteries? or is the problem just getting them charged to a 100%.


In my case I will have the solar and victron mppt controller . most the time my solar controller would do the charging and can be set correct charging specs .
There is only two cases i would need to use the converter . while boon docking and no sun and using generator to get battery up.while stopping on road at campsite to recharge.


in the past using AGM battery i put a switch to disconnect the charging line from the converter so while on shore power i could just run things from converter. But looking over the spec it does not look the the wfco can produce any damaging voltage regardless of what charge mode it is in

While the WFCO controller specifications give the appearance that it can over voltage the lithium batteries, in the real world it is unlikely to happen. In the 6 years of having a WFCO converter in my Escape 17, and 2 years in my 21, I never had the converter go into the bulk mode. The highest voltage I ever saw was 13.8V. This is not enough to cause any damage to lithium batteries, but not enough to fully charge them.

While the WFCO converter in my 21 was rated at 55 amps, I never saw anywhere near that, in fact Escape put a 40 amp fuse at the batteries, and it never opened. I suppose that if you managed to suck the batteries down to 10% - 20%, the voltage would be low enough to cause the WFCO converter to kick into the bulk stage, but again, I've never had that happen. With solar, even a string of cloudy days will likely keep lithium batteries at a high enough voltage that the converter will not go into bulk.

Even if the WFCO exceeded 15V, the battery management system built into the Battleborn batteries would shut them down.

The Victron controller can either be set to the lithium profile, or be manually set (with the app) to Battleborn's specifications, which are a little different from the lithium setting. Battleborn specifications for the Victron controller are on their website.

As to adding a switch to disconnect the converter, the Escape provided battery disconnect switch does just that. With it open, the converter will supply the trailer & the batteries will be disconnected. The solar controller will still be connected to the batteries, and your battery monitor (if installed) will show the battery voltage, not the converter. To see the converter voltage when disconnected, use a plug in volt meter in one of the trailer's 12V receptacles.

To determine if you need a converter disconnect, try this: If the Victron solar controller is properly set to lithium, it will drop to float (13.6V) once the absorption time is finished. It will take a bit of time for the battery voltage to drop from the Absorption 14.4V, but after that I'd keep an eye on the voltage while connected to a pedestal to see if the converter is exceeding 14V or so. If so, Try opening the battery disconnect switch. If the voltage doesn't change, you don't need to use a disconnect. If it drops, use the disconnect.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

Hmm, I missed this. So should I assume that the batteries should be disconnected from the solar panels when the trailer is stored outside?

If you are not using the trailer's low voltage system for more than a couple of weeks, Battleborn suggests letting the batteries drop to 80% and disconnecting them from charging sources. This is not critical, but will extend battery life.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

While the WFCO controller specifications give the appearance that it can over voltage the lithium batteries, in the real world it is unlikely to happen. In the 6 years of having a WFCO converter in my Escape 17, and 2 years in my 21, I never had the converter go into the bulk mode. The highest voltage I ever saw was 13.8V. This is not enough to cause any damage to lithium batteries, but not enough to fully charge them.

While the WFCO converter in my 21 was rated at 55 amps, I never saw anywhere near that, in fact Escape put a 40 amp fuse at the batteries, and it never opened. I suppose that if you managed to suck the batteries down to 10% - 20%, the voltage would be low enough to cause the WFCO converter to kick into the bulk stage, but again, I've never had that happen. With solar, even a string of cloudy days will likely keep lithium batteries at a high enough voltage that the converter will not go into bulk.

Even if the WFCO exceeded 15V, the battery management system built into the Battleborn batteries would shut them down.

The Victron controller can either be set to the lithium profile, or be manually set (with the app) to Battleborn's specifications, which are a little different from the lithium setting. Battleborn specifications for the Victron controller are on their website.

As to adding a switch to disconnect the converter, the Escape provided battery disconnect switch does just that. With it open, the converter will supply the trailer & the batteries will be disconnected. The solar controller will still be connected to the batteries, and your battery monitor (if installed) will show the battery voltage, not the converter. To see the converter voltage when disconnected, use a plug in volt meter in one of the trailer's 12V receptacles.

To determine if you need a converter disconnect, try this: If the Victron solar controller is properly set to lithium, it will drop to float (13.6V) once the absorption time is finished. It will take a bit of time for the battery voltage to drop from the Absorption 14.4V, but after that I'd keep an eye on the voltage while connected to a pedestal to see if the converter is exceeding 14V or so. If so, Try opening the battery disconnect switch. If the voltage doesn't change, you don't need to use a disconnect. If it drops, use the disconnect.

This is very helpful , It sounds like in my case I could easily get by with the wfco. one thing about the battle born I don't understand.If the bms has a high and low temp shutdown what happens to the Mppt controller. lets say you out west over 100 degree day and in the battery compartment gets even warmer. so the battle born Bms will shut down to protect battery. Now the mppt controller has all the panels feeding power to it but it has lost its voltage to from battery to run the unit. I always been told to never hook up the Mptt with out hooking to battery first as it will damage the controller . I actually sent victron a email on this and am waiting for there response.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

This is very helpful , It sounds like in my case I could easily get by with the wfco. one thing about the battle born I don't understand.If the bms has a high and low temp shutdown what happens to the Mppt controller. lets say you out west over 100 degree day and in the battery compartment gets even warmer. so the battle born Bms will shut down to protect battery. Now the mppt controller has all the panels feeding power to it but it has lost its voltage to from battery to run the unit. I always been told to never hook up the Mptt with out hooking to battery first as it will damage the controller . I actually sent victron a email on this and am waiting for there response.

I've wondered the same. A good reason to have a solar panel disconnect between the panels & controller.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

This is very helpful , It sounds like in my case I could easily get by with the wfco. one thing about the battle born I don't understand.If the bms has a high and low temp shutdown what happens to the Mppt controller. lets say you out west over 100 degree day and in the battery compartment gets even warmer. so the battle born Bms will shut down to protect battery. Now the mppt controller has all the panels feeding power to it but it has lost its voltage to from battery to run the unit. I always been told to never hook up the Mptt with out hooking to battery first as it will damage the controller . I actually sent victron a email on this and am waiting for there response.

Get a battery temperature sensor for your MPPT controller and set it to a lower maximum temperature than the BattleBorn batteries cutoff.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Get a battery temperature sensor for your MPPT controller and set it to a lower maximum temperature than the BattleBorn batteries cutoff.

Victron manuals leave a lot to be desired, but as far as I can tell, you cannot connect a battery monitor sensor directly to their MPPT controllers. Your choices are to attach their battery temperature sensor to a 712 Battery monitor or purchase a separate device, the Smart Battery Sense. In either case, you set up VE.Smart Networking to the solar controller and set a low temperature cut off. According to the manual, it is preset to -5°C, but appears to be adjustable.

Low temperature cutoff may be available without a sensor (at least the app shows it and lets you adjust it) but if you attempt to adjust it, the temperature adjustment window states "This setting only takes effect when the battery temperature is shared by other device, for example by a BMV or in a VE.Smart network." Another part of the manuals states that if there is no battery monitor sensor, the cutoff will use the temperature of the controller. Why this would require the VE.Smart network is beyond me, but wouldn't be all that useful since the controller and battery temperatures are likely not the same. As I mentioned before, Victron manuals can get frustrating...

You would need to insure that battery charging voltage temperature compensation is off since it should not be used with lithium batteries.

[Buckyver]

For those looking to replace the WFCO Converter I found the WFCO-WF-8950L2-MBA replacement lithium ion power center converter on eBay for $168 w/free 2 day shipping. Got delivery today so it’s a valid purchase on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WFCO-WF-895...72.m2749.l2649

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Victron manuals leave a lot to be desired, but as far as I can tell, you cannot connect a battery monitor sensor directly to their MPPT controllers. Your choices are to attach their battery temperature sensor to a 712 Battery monitor or purchase a separate device, the Smart Battery Sense. In either case, you set up VE.Smart Networking to the solar controller and set a low temperature cut off. According to the manual, it is preset to -5°C, but appears to be adjustable.

Low temperature cutoff may be available without a sensor (at least the app shows it and lets you adjust it) but if you attempt to adjust it, the temperature adjustment window states "This setting only takes effect when the battery temperature is shared by other device, for example by a BMV or in a VE.Smart network." Another part of the manuals states that if there is no battery monitor sensor, the cutoff will use the temperature of the controller. Why this would require the VE.Smart network is beyond me, but wouldn't be all that useful since the controller and battery temperatures are likely not the same. As I mentioned before, Victron manuals can get frustrating...

You would need to insure that battery charging voltage temperature compensation is off since it should not be used with lithium batteries.

Sounds like you just gave a bunch of reasons to choose something other than Victron for your MPPT Solar Charge Controller.

[Effie]

If you have the Victron BMV 712 battery monitor with the temperature sensor and a Victron MPPT charge controller its easy to set up VE.Smart Networking. It uses Bluetooth between two devices (or more if you have additional charge controllers) transmitting the battery temperature and voltage to the charge controller. Every type of battery will benefit because the charge controller have more accurate battery voltage to make better “charging decisions” when there is some voltage drop-off on the wiring between the controller and the battery. The temperature information lets you configure the controller to stop charging at low temperature. As Jon stated the default is 5 Celsius (41 Fahrenheit). It may not be critical when both battery and controller are in the same location but when the battery is outside and the controller is inside it could be important especially for Lithium batteries.

[yangstyle]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

I think you are buying new. I'm buying new also. Here's my take. Escape's Duel 6 Volt Battery option is reasonably priced. The will last at least a couple of years. After a couple of years, battery technology will have advanced or existing battery technology will be lower in price. So, I'm getting the Duel 6 Volt Battery option now, and when I need to replace them I'll evaluate LiFePO4 or other battery options at that time.

I already have my Escape but I think I will do that also. Should be good for a few years and look at the options when the batteries need replacing. In the meantime see if technology and/or cost improves any.

[Effie]

Same here, I have my e19 for about a year with the two six volt. In a few years when I'll need new ones I'll know my needs much better and will come up with a plan of how to go forward, with some luck Lithium power will be more affordable if I decide to go that way.