Quality

[Centex]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

Come along and tell me product X sucks, and I'll fight you. Because admitting it sucks will cause me psychological pain.

People will fight you a lot harder to avoid confronting that they may have been wrong than they will fight you for a few hundred bucks.

Another interesting perspective (yes, I realize a hypothetical observation by Jeffrey, not a reference to himself).

Me, I've made what turned out to be regretted purchases (a couple quite large ), I'm glad to admit to others my 'lesions learned' to perhaps save them from the same, it's at least some small salve for the 'lesion'.

Is integrity and honesty now forfeit to any amount of dollars, personal pride, or ego? Perhaps for some but nope, I for one can't take or recommend that as a way to approach life, it's contrary to my upbringing. YMMV.

[yangstyle]

Originally Posted by terter

Hi All, we picked up our new 21C in June. I have been reading this thread and felt compelled to post our experiences after two camping trips, not including our trip back from picking it up in MT. Well, actually, we did discover a major leak coming back from the bathroom vent. It rained quite a lot on the way home, and the toilet filled up every time it rained! ETI did supply the materials to fix it after we returned home quite quickly. The point is, the vent was not put on correctly to begin with. It took about two hours to scrape off all the caulk, clean the vent. and redo it correctly. The next thing that happened was this weekend. We opened the closet and there was a terrible sewer gas smell. Some folks on the FB forum have chimed in as to the cause. I have read here that the black tank possibly overflows into the gray? Is that legal for the U.S.? A question for ETI certainly. But, in any case, a gas smell should not be there. We were off grid camping and came home with the gray tank about 75 percent full. It pushed the shower plug out and sloshed all over the shower floor. Yuck. The SeeLevel does not work on the black tank, so that's another fix. I guess the quality of the Escape only has to do with the fibreglass shell. Too much to expect workmanship of everything else to be high quality? Don't get me wrong, we do enjoy the trailer, but one doesn't expect lots of problems right off the bat!

As far as the smell in the closet of the 21 there is some info here on the forum about that, worth checking out. Personally I wouldn't rely on FB for valid info. I don't believe it is possible to get an overflow from black to gray. We had that smell problem intermittently over a few years, I think it happens more when we have the max fan on high and windows not open enough so it brings in odors if the vent is not sealed properly. I tried using some silicone tape at both locations where the solid pipe changes to flexible. Not sure if it has worked as we have not been back camping since then. As far as the black tank indicator, check to see if the connections are loose under the bed. You can reach them through the outside access panel. I had a loose connection once there. If the shower plug is screwed in it should not come out, that's on our check list before we travel.

[MichaelS78]

Lots of insightful perspectives!

I've been wondering lately if part of the dissonance in opinions is due to the fact that Escape is changing and the "early adopters", the people who've had a trailer for awhile now, don't want to change their views on the product because to them, the earlier version of the company and the product IS "Escape". And they're correct. Because for them the early version of the company and their trailers is all that they really know and have experience with. Why should they change their opinion based on some posts on a forum? They have tangible proof in their hands what the product is.

Then comes along hundreds of potential new owners who are speculating based off of what they have experience with. Which is posts in a forum along with educated guesses about what happens to companies that are bought by investment firms. And they're correct too, because to them the previous version of the company and their trailers no longer exists (at least not if you're buying new). So they want to discuss the new version and speculate without fear of upsetting others.

I can empathize with both perspectives and can foresee myself becoming much more of a cheerleader after receiving my trailer. Even if there are issues. It IS a wonderful product. I will try to reduce the speculation as I can see how that adds to the problem.

[bborzell]

Notwithstanding the reality that many of the comments here are coming from individual perspectives that are mutually exclusive (older trailers vs. newer, customer service from the past vs. current management), there are some common points that I think most reasonable people would agree on.

1. A new trailer body should have integrity and not leak. A flat floor would be nice.

2. Appliances and components should be installed correctly and tested by staff who are sufficiently experienced to be able to diagnose operational faults with the unit, electrical and gas connections and plumbing.

3. Tire mounts should not loosen on the bumper on the way home from pickup.

4. Roof fans/vents should not be installed in a manner that leaves stripped threads.

5. Tanks that are filled and tested prior to releasing the trailer for pickup/delivery (a good thing) should be drained after testing is completed (even better).

Virtually all of the problems I have read of late that raise any concern to me involve people who have picked up new trailers and have experienced immediate problems that would not have occurred had the problem component been installed and inspected by a well trained technician.

I am left with the impression that an unintended consequence of all the public announcements about streamlining and increasing production of trailers is some degree of reduction in attention to detail that manifests itself in some trailers having the luck of the draw with respect to who works on them (with happy buyers) and others ending up with the logical adverse effects of an assembly line that currently appears to utilize workers with significant variation in experience and oversight.

I am hoping that our new 21C falls in the former category. I am thinking that the odds are with me. But, I cannot simply dismiss the often proved reality that significant increases in production output are frequently accompanied by some reduction in quality due to stretching available resources, hiring new staff who are not necessarily experienced or, not focusing on adequate review and oversight.

It is always easy to lose control of quality but particularly when established production processes are tweaked in order to increase output.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Centex

I do find it unfortunate that some folks seem motivated to automatically discount any comment which might be construed as reflecting less-than-favorably on ETI, and there do seem to be a few of those individuals IMO. But that as well as the positive and negative reports is just the stuff one must sift-through and judge when gathering info from any source about any product.

I may have inadvertently painted Ambassador’s with too broad of a brush and for that I apologize. The referral money is likely not enough to be a huge motivator for most. I do take issue with those that jump on any criticism of Escape as if their mother formed the company or something. People that have legitimate issues with their trailers deserve to be heard and the solutions that are offered by the many experienced members may help others who find the thread in the future.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

... People that have legitimate issues with their trailers deserve to be heard and the solutions that are offered by the many experienced members may help others who find the thread in the future.

That's an undeniable benefit of the forum IMO

[Rossue]

Yep, I got some updated info for those unfortunate enough to have a broken window. Will start a thread after second attempt at install Monday.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I do take issue with those that jump on any criticism of Escape as if their mother formed the company or something.

And, I take issue with those who don't read instructions and blame ETI for problems of their own creation. I've no problem with asking for help, but assigning blame without evidence irritates me.

[MyronL]

What Glenn said. What pisses me off most is my own ignorance.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I may have inadvertently painted Ambassador’s with too broad of a brush and for that I apologize. The referral money is likely not enough to be a huge motivator for most. I do take issue with those that jump on any criticism of Escape as if their mother formed the company or something. People that have legitimate issues with their trailers deserve to be heard and the solutions that are offered by the many experienced members may help others who find the thread in the future.

The Mother Of All Companies Syndrome was the worst when Reace & Tammy owned Escape Trailer Ltd. Now that KV owns the brand it is not as personal. Still some jump 'Cause they Gotta'!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

And, I take issue with those who don't read instructions and blame ETI for problems of their own creation. I've no problem with asking for help, but assigning blame without evidence irritates me.

No disagreement here in that regard. Note that my next line was “People that have legitimate issues with their trailers deserve to be heard…” This was implied to mean true manufacturing defects. Not something caused by an owner and blamed on ETI.

[gbaglo]

Works for me.

[JeffreyG]

I'll give you one other take on 'quality'. Quality is something that can be designed into a product, or it can be built in. Designed in quality is always easier to maintain and do consistently.

An example: Stick built trailers are known to develop leaks that lead to catatrophic failure. A built in quality solution might be to add more sealant, train the builders better, and add lots of end of line checks to make sure the RV is not leaking. A designed in solution is a fiberglass trailer.

But even when you start with a fiberglass hull like an Escape (or Oliver etc.) the rest of the RV is largely still a mess of built in quality. The wiring harnesses are not factory built units with machine crimps, plastic looms, dedicated clipping and routing structure. Nope. the harnesses are built by operators pulling bulk wire off spools and running each line. The potential for rubs, chafing, nicks, cuts, weak crimps......all up to the operator.

Plumbing is the same way.

Your quality issues with an Escape come (in a lot of cases) in that you can only do so much with built in quality. I guess the flip (good) side is that this makes the systems easy to repair yourself. I think a lot of the nostalgia for earlier Escapes is that they had such a low volume they could keep up with a manually executed, built-in quality situation. And when that failed, Reace would go the extra mile to try and fix it.

The other source of quality problems in RV's is that the RV appliance industry also does not pursue designed in quality, but that's a different discussion.

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

And, I take issue with those who don't read instructions and blame ETI for problems of their own creation. I've no problem with asking for help, but assigning blame without evidence irritates me.

Hi: gbaglo... Hmmm. I thought that "Step one" was to throw away the instructions!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

I'll give you one other take on 'quality'. Quality is something that can be designed into a product, or it can be built in. Designed in quality is always easier to maintain and do consistently.

An example: Stick built trailers are known to develop leaks that lead to catatrophic failure. A built in quality solution might be to add more sealant, train the builders better, and add lots of end of line checks to make sure the RV is not leaking. A designed in solution is a fiberglass trailer.

But even when you start with a fiberglass hull like an Escape (or Oliver etc.) the rest of the RV is largely still a mess of built in quality. The wiring harnesses are not factory built units with machine crimps, plastic looms, dedicated clipping and routing structure. Nope. the harnesses are built by operators pulling bulk wire off spools and running each line. The potential for rubs, chafing, nicks, cuts, weak crimps......all up to the operator.

Plumbing is the same way.

Your quality issues with an Escape come (in a lot of cases) in that you can only do so much with built in quality. I guess the flip (good) side is that this makes the systems easy to repair yourself. I think a lot of the nostalgia for earlier Escapes is that they had such a low volume they could keep up with a manually executed, built-in quality situation. And when that failed, Reace would go the extra mile to try and fix it.

The other source of quality problems in RV's is that the RV appliance industry also does not pursue designed in quality, but that's a different discussion.

WELL SAID>>>>>I agree completely!

[escape artist]

Hi: All... Reace once told me "We make a wonderful trailer... then cut it full of holes". Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[kavm]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

No disagreement here in that regard. Note that my next line was “People that have legitimate issues with their trailers deserve to be heard…” This was implied to mean true manufacturing defects. Not something caused by an owner and blamed on ETI.

I could not agree more, and applaud you for saying this. It is highly needed.

Unfortunately that is not the experience on this forum. One need not look much further than earlier posts on this very thread. Certain members, headlined by Glen, shoot at the messenger if any negative experience is shared, making it a very unwelcome place. Having personally been on the receiving end and observing the treatment of others such as Dana Lakeman, Ksfisk, VictorPA and others, I got the message and cut down the visits to the forums and think twice about posting the experience. I only felt compelled to post this as Dave’s post captures so nicely how I feel.

It really should not be this way.

PS: Our new camper is in the shop for the last 2 months (most of which is due to the wait time in RV repair business, some of it with difficulty of locating underbody connections with underbody foam spray) for a See Level II (a new $500? option) installation issue which should have been found out if there had been a quality check to see if a newly option were working before it left the factory.

[YakRV]

There is a great deal of valuable information provided on this forum. Like everything out there these days, just need to filter out the other stuff. It’s really not that hard.

[RangerMan]

Originally Posted by kavm

I could not agree more, and applaud you for saying this. It is highly needed.

Unfortunately that is not the experience on this forum. One need not look much further than earlier posts on this very thread. Certain members, headlined by Glen, shoot at the messenger if any negative experience is shared, making it a very unwelcome place. Having personally been on the receiving end and observing the treatment of others such as Dana Lakeman, Ksfisk, VictorPA and others, I got the message and cut down the visits to the forums and think twice about posting the experience. I only felt compelled to post this as Dave’s post captures so nicely how I feel.

It really should not be this way.

PS: Our new camper is in the shop for the last 2 months (most of which is due to the wait time in RV repair business, some of it with difficulty of locating underbody connections with underbody foam spray) for a See Level II (a new $500? option) installation issue which should have been found out if there had been a quality check to see if a newly option were working before it left the factory.

Not to long ago someone, I think Donna posted "Just ignore Glen" in response to another post. Good advice. I went directly to my Ignore List and stuck him in there where he belongs.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

Not to long ago someone, I think Donna posted "Just ignore Glen" in response to another post. Good advice. I went directly to my Ignore List and stuck him in there.

Could have been me and it can be about anyone that irritates you. No one is required to read anything or post anywhere on this forum. BTW: The only people you can't add to your PM ignore list are admins/moderators. But the rest of it, use your scroll wheel. Life's too short to go through it irritated.