Have you supplemented the insulation?

[jking1224]

Has any on this forum added to the insulation of their Escape? Especially in the under bench/bed/cupboard areas?

If so, what insulation product did you use and any feedback on the success?

It would seem that it would not be too difficult to add some insulation to “outside walls” or backsides of the lower sections of any of the Escape models. Using some sort of flexible panel type/foam board insulation product. It seems that by lining the outer walls in spaces below the dinette, under the bed, to the rear of the cabinets, around the wheel wells, etc. that you could substantially increase the overall insulated value of the trailer without adding too much weight.
This would be for cold weather use mostly, but would have some value for hot weather use as well.
It would be a general pain in the butt to do the work, but it seems some kind of flexible board type product could be self-adhesive or glued or even just pushed into place along the walls in the lower curved areas. It would consume space that, at least for me, is mostly vacant. An inch or even two inches of thickness in 75% or more of the walls under the bed, benches and cabinets would seem to me to make a substantial improvement. Cutting down on condensation surfaces and cold areas.
The same idea could also be applied to rear of the upper cabinet areas too, but for me that space is better occupied.

Has anyone done this? What product did you use? How effective do you think it is?
Discussion please.

[rubicon327]

Not sure how helpful this is but one owner who had their trailer for sale did 1/2" closed cell foam over the stock insulation where accessible. You can see it in a few pictures. Not sure if the trailer ever sold because Katmobile got frustrated with tire kickers and she also hasn't been on the forum since July.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...-wa-17563.html

[jking1224]

Thanks for the link.
Interesting ideas. Part of me likes the idea of insulting the floor areas using that interlocking gym mat/puzzle type product. One downside would be that then the storage floor is then “sticky” and boxes/bins would be harder to slide. Which is good so loads don’t move, but bad when trying to shove something to the back under the bed. I wouldn’t insulate the main living area and cover with carpet like they did as it makes it too difficult to clean. I use floor runner style rugs for this reason.

Second, using the 1/2 inch foam and gluing it to walls is good idea. But why not go all the way and use some one inch or two inch thick product? I wonder if there is a thicker foam product that has a foil/reflectix type backing?

Third, I am interested to hear from someone on the effectiveness of any of this effort? It is a lot of crawling around and tight spaces. Is it worthwhile, can one tell the difference?

[Vermilye]

I insulated most of the floor of my 21 by adding 2" blue styrofoam to the underside of the trailer. Started as a project to cover the exposed plumbing crossover to the kitchen sink, and got carried away.

[h2owmn]

I have thought about the interlocking gym mat, and even bought some from costco. I may use in the under bench floor areas but it is too textured for the main floor area, too many spots for dirt even when covered by rugs in winter.

Looks like harbor freight has some that may be flatter but haven't seen in person yet.

Somebody put a panel of electric floor stuff on his floor, fairly (in the past year) recently. Sorry I don't have a link.

[Mike G]

Heat rises, so the most effective place to add insulation should be the ceiling. In other words, would adding insulation inside lower cabinets and seats make an appreciable difference? If you only get the furnace to snap on 30 seconds later than otherwise, that's a really small gain for all the effort.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike G

Heat rises, so the most effective place to add insulation should be the ceiling.

Hot air rises compared to colder air; heat is conducted without regard to gravity, at a rate dependent on material characteristics and temperature difference. If the interior is warm and cozy with an air temperature near the ceiling a few degrees warmer than the air temperature near the floor, and if it freezing outside, heat will be lost out the lower wall areas at almost as high a rate as it out the upper wall areas.

Other than the minor temperature difference, the only things stopping the floor from losing heat at the same rate as other areas are that the construction is different (added plywood but no insulation other then the floor of the 5.0TA loft) and the outside air doesn't circulate as freely under the trailer as around the open sides and top.

Houses have thicker insulation in the ceiling than the walls, mostly because there's more room for it. Houses also routinely have no insulation under a basement floor (and in older houses even in the basement walls), because the ground on the other side isn't as cold as outside winter air (or as hot as outside summer air). But a trailer isn't a house.

[Mike G]

Brian, wouldn't the air pockets in the lower cupboards and seats tend to somewhat minimize that conduction?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike G

Brian, wouldn't the air pockets in the lower cupboards and seats tend to somewhat minimize that conduction?

Yes, certainly, just as upper cabinets reduce heat transfer through the upper walls and the ceiling.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by jking1224

Has any on this forum added to the insulation of their Escape? Especially in the under bench/bed/cupboard areas?

If so, what insulation product did you use and any feedback on the success?

It would seem that it would not be too difficult to add some insulation to “outside walls” or backsides of the lower sections of any of the Escape models. Using some sort of flexible panel type/foam board insulation product. It seems that by lining the outer walls in spaces below the dinette, under the bed, to the rear of the cabinets, around the wheel wells, etc. that you could substantially increase the overall insulated value of the trailer without adding too much weight.
This would be for cold weather use mostly, but would have some value for hot weather use as well.
It would be a general pain in the butt to do the work, but it seems some kind of flexible board type product could be self-adhesive or glued or even just pushed into place along the walls in the lower curved areas. It would consume space that, at least for me, is mostly vacant. An inch or even two inches of thickness in 75% or more of the walls under the bed, benches and cabinets would seem to me to make a substantial improvement. Cutting down on condensation surfaces and cold areas.
The same idea could also be applied to rear of the upper cabinet areas too, but for me that space is better occupied.

Has anyone done this? What product did you use? How effective do you think it is?
Discussion please.

This is a double edged sword sort of thing. Our trailers, even with their insulation have a relatively low R value(this is a measurement of insulation value) so do you increase the insulation? How far are you willing to go to Really make a significant difference? I believe you would need to redo the whole trailer and would lose significant space at the same time. Also an inch only increases the R value with the best insulation by 5, modern houses use 30-50 R value in the ceiling and 20-30 R value in the walls. A stock escape might be a 5!
Sealing up air leaks in a living space is just as important as insulation...warm air out=cold air in that needs to be heated. But here comes the sword thing....in a small space like our trailers the moisture that we release with our breath, cooking and hot water use can create real problems. You could fit up an air to air heat exchanger and get rid of the moisture but is it worth it? A mini split or a heat strip on your air conditioner can help remove this moisture but now you need to be plugged in...

The place I might be tempted to add insulation is on the windows...even the best window has a VERY low R value and the metal frames are wonderful conductors of heat too. Energy always goes from high energy(read warm here) to low energy (read cold here). Here comes the sword thing...if you insulate the windows you can't see out of them and we are camping to be outside...no?

Unfortunately our trailers are not designed for winter use for any length of time and in my opinion it is not worth the effort to add insulation unless you opted to not get the spray foam...it really does help keep the floors warmer and the trailer quieter.

Just my two cents. BTW I know that I have simplified R values, conduction and convection! They are for discussion's sake not a class in thermodynamics!

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

The place I might be tempted to add insulation is on the windows...even the best window has a VERY low R value and the metal frames are wonderful conductors of heat too. Energy always goes from high energy(read warm here) to low energy (read cold here). Here comes the sword thing...if you insulate the windows you can't see out of them and we are camping to be outside...no?

The three coldest spots in our camper are the dinette access door, battery vent, and the windows. Not much can be done with the access door. I looked at foaming the battery vent, but haven't gotten that far. The windows are the biggest issue when sitting in the dinette at less than 20 F.

A basic explanation on r-value for our windows is here. When it comes to insulation those thin double pane windows are not the best. We find at under 20 F our windows wash cold air, so are cold when sitting in the dinette. The windows in our Bigfoot were at least 1/2" thick and worked quite well with almost no cold wash. It also had insulating shades that were tight against the edges when pulled down, something I wish ETI would offer.

I cut foil bubble wrap insulation to fit the windows and was surprised at the increase in comfort sitting at the dinette. The bubble wrap fits behind the curtain strings and gets close to being flush against the windows, but only close. It does make a difference when sitting in the dinette at colder tempertures. I store the insulation behind the dinette seats when camping in the winter and underneath the mattress the rest of the years.

Food for thought.

Perry

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

The three coldest spots in our camper are the dinette access door, battery vent, and the windows. Not much can be done with the access door. I looked at foaming the battery vent, but haven't gotten that far. The windows are the biggest issue when sitting in the dinette at less than 20 F.

A basic explanation on r-value for our windows is here. When it comes to insulation those thin double pane windows are not the best. We find at under 20 F our windows wash cold air, so are cold when sitting in the dinette. The windows in our Bigfoot were at least 1/2" thick and worked quite well with almost no cold wash. It also had insulating shades that were tight against the edges when pulled down, something I wish ETI would offer.

I cut foil bubble wrap insulation to fit the windows and was surprised at the increase in comfort sitting at the dinette. The bubble wrap fits behind the curtain strings and gets close to being flush against the windows, but only close. It does make a difference when sitting in the dinette at colder tempertures. I store the insulation behind the dinette seats when camping in the winter and underneath the mattress the rest of the years.

Food for thought.

Perry

We do the same. If you are bored look up mean radiant temperature. That is the overall effect on your body from all surfaces at a different temperature in direct line of sight. Essentially the cold window temperature is sucking the heat off your body. Same problem in buildings with occupants sitting close to large expanses of low performance glass.

[Ian and Sue]

Yes I did the same thing in our Scamp but so far have not needed it/gotten motivated to do it for our Escape. I purchased a roll of reflectix and made all sorts of covers in the past...windows, hatch covers, etc. it pushes nicely inside the window frame and stays put.

[h2owmn]

When you use the reflectix on the inside of the window, is there moisture on the window underneath? I have put a sheet against the front window--my bed is right underneath and if there's nothing except the shade, it gets pretty damp. I could try putting it on the outside and closing the rock guard as an experiment. It's just way easier to leave the rock guard up and cover the window inside during the night.

Thanks.

[Vermilye]

I made a set of reflectix panels for all the windows & power vent for my 17B. They were helpful for keeping the trailer a bit warmer during winter camping, but I primarily made them for a summer trip to Alaska to act as darkening shades. Have you ever watched a sunset at 11:00PM?

[NW Cat Owner]

I got some inexpensive yoga mats off Amazon and cut them up to fit under the cushions on the u-shaped dinette, as well as under the bed. I definitely noticed the difference.



On my way to Oregon I stayed overnight at a Wal-Mart and that bed was cold without the heated bed pad turned on. A few weeks later I stayed there again, but with the yoga mats underneath. Same outside temperature. While the bed wasn't toasty warm, it sure wasn't as cold as before.


For the dinette, I made sure the mats didn't have a break in the same area as the cushions, so I wouldn't get cold air from underneath going in a straight line between the cushions and mats. I did notice a difference after I installed the mats.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by h2owmn

When you use the reflectix on the inside of the window, is there moisture on the window underneath? I have put a sheet against the front window--my bed is right underneath and if there's nothing except the shade, it gets pretty damp. I could try putting it on the outside and closing the rock guard as an experiment. It's just way easier to leave the rock guard up and cover the window inside during the night.

Thanks.

No I did not notice that problem. If anything the moisture should show up on the inside of the reflectix not against the window since that is now the warm/cold interface.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

....... But a trailer isn't a house.

IMO, the most pertinent comment in this entire thread. And I would amend it by adding “and except for a select few brands, it never will be.”

I do not purposely intend to be facetious, but when I wish to use my trailer in colder temperatures, the only extra insulation I want or need depends on the situation. If I have shore power, the extra insulation comes from setting the thermostat on my quartz heater a bit higher and if away from utilities, doing the same with the propane furnace (in addition to having a spare 20 lbs cylinder in the back of my truck, just in case). In either case, if my form of “extra insulation” is inadequate for the prevailing conditions, then I don’t want to be in the trailer anyway. For me, if I have to wear anything more than a sweatshirt or a light jacket over my preferred attire, a tee-shirt, camping ceases to be enjoyable. YMMV!

[curru]

I have a 2017 19' with the awning double pane windows. When it gets cold out and I don't open the windows as much, I remove the screens. I cut reflectix to fit behind the lip that the screens attach to. It does make a difference in heat retention, but does create a bit of condensation/ice on the inside of the windows when it gets into the 20s at night. Making insulated covers for the ceiling vents (don't have AC, so two vents) helps a lot. Though condensation on the lid of the Maxx fan has done in the circuit board, twice! Have taken the screen and blade off that fan and fit in a double round of pink foam board, not much heat loss there now.

[Defenestrator]

I put foil-backed foam under the bed. Not sure if it ended up making much of a difference - probably too thin of foam to really help.

I also stuck reflectix panels over the windows. Mostly to block the light (I'm a late sleeper), but I think it also helped noticeably on hot and cold days. In the winter I did need to take it down in the morning and clear up condensation.